#27 If the Highlander in-game thing really takes off, I don't think the TF team are opposed to introducing other game-modes. But Highlander is where it'll start.
Royce6v6 is kind of awful without a cooperative team in mumble so it was pretty much doomed from the start
but getting a team that communicates and cooperates in dota and csgo matchmaking is up to chance its literally the same thing
ban wrangler 2013
but getting a team that communicates and cooperates in dota and csgo matchmaking is up to chance its literally the same thing
ban wrangler 2013
Salamancer#24 Sure, you may get trolls. Let's think of ways to mitigate that - who's doing the picking for each team? Exactly how would you set up such a lobby? That's what this community needs to test.
I think one way to mitigate trolling is to say all vanilla items are automatically allowed.
#24 Sure, you may get trolls. Let's think of ways to mitigate that - who's doing the picking for each team? Exactly how would you set up such a lobby? That's what this community needs to test.[/quote]
I think one way to mitigate trolling is to say all vanilla items are automatically allowed.
panzerkampfwagena pick/ban system will more than likely lead to trolls who ban the sticky launcher, scattergun, medigun, or the useful unlocks such as ubersaw and gunboats if you can't ban defaults.
In statistics, those are called outliers and there are various ways to account for them.
In statistics, those are called outliers and there are various ways to account for them.
Since I posted a wall of text, let me state the most important point again:
I believe that these lobbies are not for us. Serious competitive players won't be playing them because they already know comp and are playing in an established league, setup the way it should be.
The lobbies will, however, get people into comp, who subsequentially will make the transition to the 6s we know and love. You should not underestimate the number of good pub players who never made the transition into comp, simply because they didn't know about it or because they found it too obscure to have a second look at.
I believe that [b]these lobbies are not for us.[/b] Serious competitive players won't be playing them because they already know comp and are playing in an established league, setup the way it should be.
[b]The lobbies will, however, get people into comp[/b], who subsequentially will make the transition to the 6s we know and love. You should not underestimate the number of good pub players who never made the transition into comp, simply because they didn't know about it or because they found it too obscure to have a second look at.
This is a really awesome idea, and I looked over all the items for things that would be pretty much auto banned.
-GRU
-Gunslinger
-Mad Milk
-Atomizer
-Bonk
-Crit a cola
-Sandman
-Sandwich
-Wrangler
-Pomson
There are probably more, but all of these items really change how 6s are played. Could you imagine a wrangled sentry on gravelpit? That map would be un-winnable as offense. I think the system where the teams each pick 9 weapons that you can use, other than default, would be a good system. We also have to keep in mind that if we show that something like an atomizer or mad milk are banned every single game, maybe valve will attempt to balance these items for 6s.
-GRU
-Gunslinger
-Mad Milk
-Atomizer
-Bonk
-Crit a cola
-Sandman
-Sandwich
-Wrangler
-Pomson
There are probably more, but all of these items really change how 6s are played. Could you imagine a wrangled sentry on gravelpit? That map would be un-winnable as offense. I think the system where the teams each pick 9 weapons that you can use, other than default, would be a good system. We also have to keep in mind that if we show that something like an atomizer or mad milk are banned every single game, maybe valve will attempt to balance these items for 6s.
RhetoricalAnarchistSalamancer#24 Sure, you may get trolls. Let's think of ways to mitigate that - who's doing the picking for each team? Exactly how would you set up such a lobby? That's what this community needs to test.
I think one way to mitigate trolling is to say all vanilla items are automatically allowed.
I'd go beyond that and say that all unlocks and stock should be allowed and then pick/ban can begin. Give the medic his kritz and the heavy his sandvich at least.
#24 Sure, you may get trolls. Let's think of ways to mitigate that - who's doing the picking for each team? Exactly how would you set up such a lobby? That's what this community needs to test.[/quote]
I think one way to mitigate trolling is to say all vanilla items are automatically allowed.[/quote]
I'd go beyond that and say that all unlocks and stock should be allowed and then pick/ban can begin. Give the medic his kritz and the heavy his sandvich at least.
ScorpiouprisingHow can you practice playing roamer if the weapon you use the majority of the time has a random chance of being removed in a league match?
2-part answer to this. Firstly, Robin insisted that one important thing missing from comp TF2 was variety. Players get very good at a specific skillset and then work the system to preserve their place with that skillset. This causes strategy and playstyles to stagnate, and it's antithetical to a game that releases constant updates.
Basically that means you practice two or three loadouts, and know more weapons. Adaptibility and on-the-fly thinking are rewarded more this way, which Robin hopes will cause more variety in games.
edit: unfucked my formatting
2-part answer to this. Firstly, Robin insisted that one important thing missing from comp TF2 was variety. Players get very good at a specific skillset and then work the system to preserve their place with that skillset. This causes strategy and playstyles to stagnate, and it's antithetical to a game that releases constant updates.
Basically that means you practice two or three loadouts, and know more weapons. Adaptibility and on-the-fly thinking are rewarded more this way, which Robin hopes will cause more variety in games.
edit: unfucked my formatting
i'd love to play in a ton of these when this system rolls out
bringing dat machina/jarate back
bringing dat machina/jarate back
Two questions
1) Will this HL in game PUG system mainly be focused towards North American players or will it benefit EU/AUS/NZ/ASIA aswell.
2) If this is successful how long do you think it will be until they implement a similar system for 6v6?
1) Will this HL in game PUG system mainly be focused towards North American players or will it benefit EU/AUS/NZ/ASIA aswell.
2) If this is successful how long do you think it will be until they implement a similar system for 6v6?
Lunacidepost
I disagree with the sandman. It promotes some sort of skillful play and teamwork and I don't think it would be too OP in highlander lobbies. Also not sure about the sandwich, now that it has to be nommed.
As for general mechanics, I would suggest to auto-enable everything that is whitelisted in current competitive leagues, autoban some of the worst unlocks and leave the rest up to the lobby creators. That way, one can choose not to give a shit about unlock bans and to just start a quick lobbie while still having a decent selection of unlocks that don't break the game.
I disagree with the sandman. It promotes some sort of skillful play and teamwork and I don't think it would be too OP in highlander lobbies. Also not sure about the sandwich, now that it has to be nommed.
[i]As for general mechanics, I would suggest to auto-enable everything that is whitelisted in current competitive leagues, autoban some of the worst unlocks and leave the rest up to the lobby creators. That way, one can choose not to give a shit about unlock bans and to just start a quick lobbie while still having a decent selection of unlocks that don't break the game[/i].
ukmso the reason they can't do 6s lobbies is because robin thinks its more boring?
seems like valid reasoning, i mean nobody watches the NFL MLB NBA or NHL since none of those games change drastically multiple times per year
I get that they wouldn't want to invest the time into -only- 6s since creating a lobby system from scratch is non trivial, but surely once the framework is there adding an option to choose 6v6 or 9v9 wouldn't be much more work, the only difference in terms of coding is allowing fewer people in the lobby, different class assignations, and a couple different cvars in the server config. If they use a pick/ban system don't need to keep up with ESEA whitelist or anything
This makes perfect sense but for whatever reason valve doesnt wanna do it. Lets stop crying about how they don't do what we want and lets try to make the most out of this that we can.
More people playing HL is more people playing competitive TF2. Those players will be much more likely to try 6v6 after they've tried HL.
I know it sucks but lets start with baby steps. Lets get this this HL lobby system in place and then if its successful we can try and use that to promote a 6v6 lobby system.
Crying about how valve won't support 6v6 does nothing to help.
seems like valid reasoning, i mean nobody watches the NFL MLB NBA or NHL since none of those games change drastically multiple times per year
I get that they wouldn't want to invest the time into -only- 6s since creating a lobby system from scratch is non trivial, but surely once the framework is there adding an option to choose 6v6 or 9v9 wouldn't be much more work, the only difference in terms of coding is allowing fewer people in the lobby, different class assignations, and a couple different cvars in the server config. If they use a pick/ban system don't need to keep up with ESEA whitelist or anything[/quote]
This makes perfect sense but for whatever reason valve doesnt wanna do it. Lets stop crying about how they don't do what we want and lets try to make the most out of this that we can.
More people playing HL is more people playing competitive TF2. Those players will be much more likely to try 6v6 after they've tried HL.
I know it sucks but lets start with baby steps. Lets get this this HL lobby system in place and then if its successful we can try and use that to promote a 6v6 lobby system.
Crying about how valve won't support 6v6 does nothing to help.
the301stspartanI believe these lobbies are not for us.
This is a good characterisation. This system should drastically increase the size of the competitive scene over time (including 6s), given sufficient infrastructure.
Robin saying that 6s is boring and will never be supported is quite alarming though! What kind of investment would posts about 6s and some documentation in game require?
I believe [b]these lobbies are not for us.[/b][/quote]
This is a good characterisation. This system should drastically increase the size of the competitive scene over time (including 6s), given sufficient infrastructure.
Robin saying that 6s is boring and will never be supported is quite alarming though! What kind of investment would posts about 6s and some documentation in game require?
did you ask them if they considered most unlocks balanced? that should be priority before they figure out what should be banned, but i guess they can happen at same time.
i'm not gonna lie
mangachu feels like the exact type of person this is directed towards
mangachu feels like the exact type of person this is directed towards
Salamancer#23 Part of the reason for the system is that it gives Valve much better feedback on which weapons need rebalancing. Currently their only sources are SPUF, Reddit and other forum threads. Those are not useful data points. Having a pick/ban item system allows them to focus on balance early on.
What a terrible idea.
They plan on giving us a 6v6 in game lobby system just so they can figure out if their weapons need to be rebalanced? Why give us a system at all if they are just gonna shit all over the format that provides for the best competitive play.
Secondly, from the beginning of time this entire game has been about the pubs and never about the competitive play. Why are they looking to us for balance on the weapons? The balance of weapons is 100% different between pubs and comp. All they needed to do was take a look at my ban list for the past few seasons and grab a handful of inviters and ask them what needs changed. Shit if anything my ban list is exactly what they are looking for since it's a poll from top players.
I don't know, I'm really excited for this but at the same time it all seems very misguided.
What a terrible idea.
They plan on giving us a 6v6 in game lobby system just so they can figure out if their weapons need to be rebalanced? Why give us a system at all if they are just gonna shit all over the format that provides for the best competitive play.
Secondly, from the beginning of time this entire game has been about the pubs and never about the competitive play. Why are they looking to us for balance on the weapons? The balance of weapons is 100% different between pubs and comp. All they needed to do was take a look at my ban list for the past few seasons and grab a handful of inviters and ask them what needs changed. Shit if anything my ban list is exactly what they are looking for since it's a poll from top players.
I don't know, I'm really excited for this but at the same time it all seems very misguided.
The one thing I would hope to be support in this the ability to limit matchmaking per region (ie, as an Australian, as much as I love you European guys, I do not feel like playing with 300ms+ constantly)?
The other good thing about this system is it could lead to underpowered items being buffed. The mantreads are long long overdue for a buff
The problem with wanting variety is that TF2, at its core, is a game of generalists and specialists. Many of the unlocks for soldier, scout, and demoman are downgrades because they are less versatile. In some cases, such as with gunboats, this is an acceptable opportunity cost that improves the game. In most cases, however, they just aren't versatile enough to justify their use over the tried and true stock weapons.
SalamancerScorpiouprisingHow can you practice playing roamer if the weapon you use the majority of the time has a random chance of being removed in a league match?
2-part answer to this. Firstly, Robin insisted that one important thing missing from comp TF2 was variety. Players get very good at a specific skillset and then work the system to preserve their place with that skillset. This causes strategy and playstyles to stagnate, and it's antithetical to a game that releases constant updates.
Basically that means you practice two or three loadouts, and know more weapons. Adaptibility and on-the-fly thinking are rewarded more this way, which Robin hopes will cause more variety in games.
edit: unfucked my formatting
In a quick direct response to Robin: The current 6s bans are pretty much created by experience from past 6s games, right? I claim that a top 6s team today (say HRG) is actually the best combination of 6 players in that class configuration (maybe even period) possible. Exluded from this are only weapons that are so game-breakingly OP that, were they allowed, everyone would be playing nothing but these weapons.
So, as a matter of fact, the current 6s whitelists allow the greatest possible variety within valves current weapon balancing.
This is why I like the idea of a pick/ban system that will show valve that it is actually up to them to rebalance in order to provide more options to 6s players.
The 6s format is unrelenting for unlocks. Only perfectly balanced sidegrades have a chance to get in. And perfectly balanced sidegrades also happen to make the game better and give dosh to valve, so this whole thing is really a win/win situation for 6s too.
2-part answer to this. Firstly, Robin insisted that one important thing missing from comp TF2 was variety. Players get very good at a specific skillset and then work the system to preserve their place with that skillset. This causes strategy and playstyles to stagnate, and it's antithetical to a game that releases constant updates.
Basically that means you practice two or three loadouts, and know more weapons. Adaptibility and on-the-fly thinking are rewarded more this way, which Robin hopes will cause more variety in games.
edit: unfucked my formatting[/quote]
In a quick direct response to Robin: The current 6s bans are pretty much created by experience from past 6s games, right? I claim that a top 6s team today (say HRG) is actually the best combination of 6 players in that class configuration (maybe even period) possible. Exluded from this are only weapons that are so game-breakingly OP that, were they allowed, everyone would be playing nothing but these weapons.
So, as a matter of fact, [b]the current 6s whitelists allow the greatest possible variety within valves current weapon balancing.[/b]
This is why I like the idea of a pick/ban system that will show valve that it is actually up to them to rebalance in order to provide more options to 6s players.
The 6s format is unrelenting for unlocks. Only perfectly balanced sidegrades have a chance to get in. And perfectly balanced sidegrades also happen to make the game better and give dosh to valve, so this whole thing is really a win/win situation for 6s too.
i completely agree with killing, not only do i think robin's argument of 6s being boring is awfully silly and around 2600 viewers last week would agree, and also even if they were to bring a highlander pug system into the game, this seems like the most unnecessarily convoluted way to do it.
but hey it's something ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
but hey it's something ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Maybe they could have a community "standard" banlist and you could select if you wanted to use that or not when you started up. Banlist could be ESEA (probably not) or maybe UGC.
I hope in the future if this gets released, there will be some kind of ELO system to differentiate people with a big skill difference. If i was completely new to competitive it would be difficult for me to compete against seasoned players.
Really excited that they are looking into this though
Really excited that they are looking into this though
They plan on giving us a 6v6 in game lobby system just so they can figure out if their weapons need to be rebalanced? Why give us a system at all if they are just gonna shit all over the format that provides for the best competitive play.
They plan on giving us a 6v6 in game lobby system
What are you talking about? They aren't.
[/quote]
[quote]They plan on giving us a 6v6 in game lobby system
[/quote]
What are you talking about? They aren't.
the301stspartanI believe that these lobbies are not for us.
if anyone is REALLY passionate about growing competitive TF2, the best thing they could do would be to solo queue in these puglobbies and give advice, teach newer players what to do, what to think about etc. Give them a good start in competitive TF2, cause they're likely not going to learn on their own.
I believe that [b]these lobbies are not for us.[/b][/quote]
if anyone is REALLY passionate about growing competitive TF2, the best thing they could do would be to solo queue in these puglobbies and give advice, teach newer players what to do, what to think about etc. Give them a good start in competitive TF2, cause they're likely not going to learn on their own.
A ban system would be nice but i could foresee a problem in that if they ban the degreaser the pyro is severely nerfed. This could be applied to most of the pyros weapons. Only sometimes does a pyro run a stock shotgun and still it is more a matter of preference. There would need to be a list of items that could not be banned like the degreaser, and stock weapons. The list of weapons that wouldn't be bannable would emerge over time after much testing.
Are you going to send this thread to Robin, Sal? I hope you do.
the301stspartanBriskSalamancerhighlander is the only way Valve will ever support competitive TF2. Let's make it happen.
Welp I think im done with comp then.
You know, "ever" on the internet extends no further than a year max.
Obviously never heard of Valve-time.
And how can 6s possibly not change enough? He obviously missed the rise of Mihaly's flow.
Welp I think im done with comp then.[/quote]
You know, "ever" on the internet extends no further than a year max.[/quote]
Obviously never heard of Valve-time.
And how can 6s possibly not change enough? He obviously missed the rise of Mihaly's flow.
Must bans?
- All Dr.Grordbort weapons
- Amputator
- Natasha
- Solemn Vow
- Half-Zatoichi
- Wrap Assassin
- Sandman
- Mad Milk
- Bushwacka
- All Dr.Grordbort weapons
- Amputator
- Natasha
- Solemn Vow
- Half-Zatoichi
- Wrap Assassin
- Sandman
- Mad Milk
- Bushwacka