lucrativetrashlucrativethere is nothing wrong with how the map was played at all, the map was always played as intended and never broken or flawed under any circumstance, people just don't like the A/D game mode or you would see other A/D maps in the rotation im sure.
"as intended" was with far more than 12 people, if you haven't forgotten. or would you say this same thing about other giant pub-friendly maps?
intent means little, especially in a game that intended to always have random crits, when this map was made.
this is such a silly argument considering badlands was made under the same circumstances, doesn't really matter that the game is a pub game, gravelpit was played FOREVER in 6v6 and it was completely functional and provided good games, weather you like the map or not it was one of the most balanced maps in 6v6 TF2, but it was removed because no one likes a random A/D map (same reason I think viaduct should be removed, random game modes are retarded, think if CS randomly put in a hostage map to their rotation). no one pushed for it to get out until eMg sucked at it and pushed it out.
a better comparison on my part: if 6s scrimmed nothing but cp_foundry, and everyone hated it, would you then say that this represents 5CP as a format?
there's more ways to potentially try A/D as a format, nobody wants to because they focus on the A/D maps they don't like, and that's a huge shame
[quote=lucrative][quote=trash][quote=lucrative]there is nothing wrong with how the map was played at all, the map was always played as intended and never broken or flawed under any circumstance, people just don't like the A/D game mode or you would see other A/D maps in the rotation im sure.[/quote]
"as intended" was with far more than 12 people, if you haven't forgotten. or would you say this same thing about other giant pub-friendly maps?
intent means little, especially in a game that intended to always have random crits, when this map was made.[/quote]
this is such a silly argument considering badlands was made under the same circumstances, doesn't really matter that the game is a pub game, gravelpit was played FOREVER in 6v6 and it was completely functional and provided good games, weather you like the map or not it was one of the most balanced maps in 6v6 TF2, but it was removed because no one likes a random A/D map (same reason I think viaduct should be removed, random game modes are retarded, think if CS randomly put in a hostage map to their rotation). no one pushed for it to get out until eMg sucked at it and pushed it out.[/quote]
a better comparison on my part: if 6s scrimmed nothing but cp_foundry, and everyone hated it, would you then say that this represents 5CP as a format?
there's more ways to potentially try A/D as a format, nobody wants to because they focus on the A/D maps they don't like, and that's a huge shame
After sideshow was discussing this on stream last night I had some thoughts.
A few arguments made were (from memory, correct me if I'm wrong):
1 A/D presents different strategies to 5cp, similarly to koth maps
2 A/D maps should be immediately obvious to a new stream viewer whereas 5cp isn't so clear
I agree with those points in general for A/D (similar to overwatch style A/D: attack A then attack B then you win) but I don't think they apply to gravelpit.
Gravelpit is an A/D map and does have different strategies to 5cp but it has the A point. The best strategy to defend A is to not even try to defend A. That's a fatal flaw IMO, why have a map where the best strategy is to not even try? Imagine a 5cp map where you had the advantage if you didn't even attempt a midfight.
While an overwatch style A/D is immediately obvious to viewers I don't think gravelpit in particular is that obvious. In a straight A/D map you attack A then you attack B etc then you win. In gravelpit you attack A and B then you attack C then you win. A new viewer who has never seen gravelpit before will wonder why they are attacking both at once and moreover, why the defending team is just ignoring the attack on A.
After sideshow was discussing this on stream last night I had some thoughts.
A few arguments made were (from memory, correct me if I'm wrong):
1 A/D presents different strategies to 5cp, similarly to koth maps
2 A/D maps should be immediately obvious to a new stream viewer whereas 5cp isn't so clear
I agree with those points in general for A/D (similar to overwatch style A/D: attack A then attack B then you win) but I don't think they apply to gravelpit.
Gravelpit is an A/D map and does have different strategies to 5cp but it has the A point. The best strategy to defend A is to not even try to defend A. That's a fatal flaw IMO, why have a map where the best strategy is to not even try? Imagine a 5cp map where you had the advantage if you didn't even attempt a midfight.
While an overwatch style A/D is immediately obvious to viewers I don't think gravelpit in particular is that obvious. In a straight A/D map you attack A then you attack B etc then you win. In gravelpit you attack A and B then you attack C then you win. A new viewer who has never seen gravelpit before will wonder why they are attacking both at once and moreover, why the defending team is just ignoring the attack on A.
Valid, but here's something additional that ties into that complaint to think about: a "new viewer" in this case can be (and will often be) somebody who has played tf2 before and understands the map. The reason this allows them to engage in understanding AD more than 5cp is because there is less difference between how one would play in a pub and how one would play in a comp game.
They can look at 5cp and understand how to win a round but they don't understand why teams can't push chokes, why teams have to give up ground with uber disadvantage, why a med/demo pick is better than a roamer pick, what a roamer even is, what offclassing is and why it's situational, why you sac people in onto last, why people use cookie-cutter lineup, I could go on and on.
If you look at AD you see a team set up with attacking classes, and a team set up with some defensive classes. They push the points and the team defends the points. They might not understand the finer strategies but they understand and can follow the flow of the game, and can empathise with the situation a lot better.
I agree with you in the sense that a straight A->B (->C if needed) map would be awesome but I don't think changing gravelpit is the answer, I think it needs a different map.
Valid, but here's something additional that ties into that complaint to think about: a "new viewer" in this case can be (and will often be) somebody who has played tf2 before and understands the map. The reason this allows them to engage in understanding AD more than 5cp is because there is less difference between how one would play in a pub and how one would play in a comp game.
They can look at 5cp and understand how to win a round but they don't understand why teams can't push chokes, why teams have to give up ground with uber disadvantage, why a med/demo pick is better than a roamer pick, what a roamer even is, what offclassing is and why it's situational, why you sac people in onto last, why people use cookie-cutter lineup, I could go on and on.
If you look at AD you see a team set up with attacking classes, and a team set up with some defensive classes. They push the points and the team defends the points. They might not understand the finer strategies but they understand and can follow the flow of the game, and can empathise with the situation a lot better.
I agree with you in the sense that a straight A->B (->C if needed) map would be awesome but I don't think changing gravelpit is the answer, I think it needs a different map.
That's exactly what I said.
SideshowI agree with you in the sense that a straight A->B (->C if needed) map would be awesome but I don't think changing gravelpit is the answer, I think it needs a different map.
Then why are you trying to change gravelpit and force it into a tournament?
That's exactly what I said.
[quote=Sideshow]I agree with you in the sense that a straight A->B (->C if needed) map would be awesome but I don't think changing gravelpit is the answer, I think it needs a different map.[/quote]
Then why are you trying to change gravelpit and force it into a tournament?
If A/D type maps would get into the comp rotation, it would be a good thing because you actually now have 3 different viable gametypes: 5cp, koth & A/D. As far as I know most comp games are focused (realistically) around 1 gamemode so this would make TF2 quite unique (again).
The few times I played gpit ages ago it was quite fun and different. I think the problem indeed lies in the difference (as discussed here earlier) because it requires teams to go over strats for both offense and defense. The symmetry element present in koth and 5cp is gone here so maybe that's why it feels bad/different.
If the concern is for the viewers..a simple addition to the HUD or a manual overlay stating red=defense, blue=offense would fix that. Alternatively, I don't see this as a strong argument against; Dota2 is quite a complex game for an outsider with many heroes and many items, yet they get a lot of viewers. I think it only comes naturally during an A/D map that when there is a stalemate casters will talk about the map and the do's and don'ts, so any confused viewer will get clarification.
So to come back to the viability of the map, it's (almost) off-season for 6v6 right? Why not set up a small cup in between seasons? It would give everyone the opportunity to play the map and when the mapvotes come up for next season people can vote after having had their own experience on it (rather than 'I don't like sideshow and he likes the map so Imma vote against')
If A/D type maps would get into the comp rotation, it would be a good thing because you actually now have 3 different viable gametypes: 5cp, koth & A/D. As far as I know most comp games are focused (realistically) around 1 gamemode so this would make TF2 quite unique (again).
The few times I played gpit ages ago it was quite fun and different. I think the problem indeed lies in the difference (as discussed here earlier) because it requires teams to go over strats for both offense and defense. The symmetry element present in koth and 5cp is gone here so maybe that's why it feels bad/different.
If the concern is for the viewers..a simple addition to the HUD or a manual overlay stating red=defense, blue=offense would fix that. Alternatively, I don't see this as a strong argument against; Dota2 is quite a complex game for an outsider with many heroes and many items, yet they get a lot of viewers. I think it only comes naturally during an A/D map that when there is a stalemate casters will talk about the map and the do's and don'ts, so any confused viewer will get clarification.
So to come back to the viability of the map, it's (almost) off-season for 6v6 right? Why not set up a small cup in between seasons? It would give everyone the opportunity to play the map and when the mapvotes come up for next season people can vote after having had their own experience on it (rather than 'I don't like sideshow and he likes the map so Imma vote against')