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Thank You Letter to RGL
61
#61
14 Frags +
mustardoverlordto be clear, in rgl the other team doesn't just request demos, rgl itself asks you for demos from a random one of your team's players for every single match

Well, for that there's:

ETF2L rulesAdmins may request demo files at any time until the end of the competition an official match was played in; a competition is considered ongoing until its wrap-up post is published. Admins may request as many files as they require.

If they felt like it they could request all demos. It's random. From what I remember they usually pick a match and request a couple from both teams.

nablaIf somebody is suspected of being a cheater you will have plenty of chances to catch them in the act or threaten a cheating ban by 4+ unsubmitted demos in a year if you stop obsessing about "We Cant Let Them Know We Suspect Them" (As if there have literally ever been anticheat bans where the community isn't already suspect of players first)

If the foundation of your stance is "random checks have never caught anyone" then anything will be excessive.
Yeah, if you think the AC team has a list of suspected cheaters that they don't do anything about while requesting random demos from everyone else so they can ban them for shits and giggles, then sure, there's no point to any of this.

nabla"Over and over again" does not mean once per year. I also feel like a 3 month ban is far from inconsequential. That's an entire season of tf2, and probably unrefunded league fees to make it sting more.

Do you seriously believe the guy just won the lottery?
Recorded all those demos except those three and RGL magically managed to request exactly those three?
Come on, go back and check how many demos that were requested from him he did upload.
And no, the three month ban is not meant to be inconsequential. The guy got banned for two weeks for failing to upload a demo three months ago. What is RGL supposed to do? Give up because he just can't be bothered and banning him isn't working?

[quote=mustardoverlord]to be clear, in rgl the other team doesn't just request demos, rgl itself asks you for demos from a random one of your team's players for every single match[/quote]
Well, for that there's:
[quote=ETF2L rules]Admins may request demo files at any time until the end of the competition an official match was played in; a competition is considered ongoing until its wrap-up post is published. Admins may request as many files as they require.[/quote]
If they felt like it they could request all demos. It's random. From what I remember they usually pick a match and request a couple from both teams.

[quote=nabla]If somebody is suspected of being a cheater you will have plenty of chances to catch them in the act or threaten a cheating ban by 4+ unsubmitted demos in a year if you stop obsessing about "We Cant Let Them Know We Suspect Them" (As if there have literally ever been anticheat bans where the community isn't already suspect of players first)[/quote]
If the foundation of your stance is "random checks have never caught anyone" then anything will be excessive.
Yeah, if you think the AC team has a list of suspected cheaters that they don't do anything about while requesting random demos from everyone else so they can ban them for shits and giggles, then sure, there's no point to any of this.


[quote=nabla]
"Over and over again" does not mean once per year. I also feel like a 3 month ban is far from inconsequential. That's an entire season of tf2, and probably unrefunded league fees to make it sting more.
[/quote]
Do you seriously believe the guy just won the lottery?
Recorded all those demos except those three and RGL magically managed to request exactly those three?
Come on, go back and check how many demos that were requested from him he did upload.
And no, the three month ban is not meant to be inconsequential. The guy got banned for two weeks for failing to upload a demo three months ago. What is RGL supposed to do? Give up because he just can't be bothered and banning him isn't working?
62
#62
13 Frags +

setsul is the glenn greenwald of tf2

i thought he was blanket anti-rgl but it turns out he just has principles

setsul is the glenn greenwald of tf2

i thought he was blanket anti-rgl but it turns out he just has principles
63
#63
-5 Frags +
SetsulnablaIf somebody is suspected of being a cheater you will have plenty of chances to catch them in the act or threaten a cheating ban by 4+ unsubmitted demos in a year if you stop obsessing about "We Cant Let Them Know We Suspect Them" (As if there have literally ever been anticheat bans where the community isn't already suspect of players first)If the foundation of your stance is "random checks have never caught anyone" then anything will be excessive.
Yeah, if you think the AC team has a list of suspected cheaters that they don't do anything about while requesting random demos from everyone else so they can ban them for shits and giggles, then sure, there's no point to any of this.

Random checks do not catch people for cheating, they are incentive for players to record all of their matches so AC knows those demos exist when they request them for AC purposes. This isn't controversial, and is freely admitted by all RGL staff I've talked to. I also never claimed that they shouldn't happen- just that missing one should be forgiven after a reasonable length of time (aka: not 4 years).

And yeah, the AC team in RGL is hugely understaffed and ineffective so there really is no point to them making sure people have their demos anyways. Their excuse for not opening cases against known cheaters in the past has been "nobody submitted a formal report". Nobody outside of exa/sigafoo/the AC team knows how many people are actually in it- but my educated guess is no more than 3 active members and its also likely none of them are super active in the community.

SetsulDo you seriously believe the guy just won the lottery?
Recorded all those demos except those three and RGL magically managed to request exactly those three?
Come on, go back and check how many demos that were requested from him he did upload.
And no, the three month ban is not meant to be inconsequential. The guy got banned for two weeks for failing to upload a demo three months ago. What is RGL supposed to do? Give up because he just can't be bothered and banning him isn't working?

Antler's specific case is an example of the rule punishing somebody innocent, but isn't the end all be all of what makes this rule stupid.
The concept of warnings not expiring for 4 years for something this trivial is just silly, and I don't feel like it should be controversial at all.

[quote=Setsul]
[quote=nabla]If somebody is suspected of being a cheater you will have plenty of chances to catch them in the act or threaten a cheating ban by 4+ unsubmitted demos in a year if you stop obsessing about "We Cant Let Them Know We Suspect Them" (As if there have literally ever been anticheat bans where the community isn't already suspect of players first)[/quote]
If the foundation of your stance is "random checks have never caught anyone" then anything will be excessive.
Yeah, if you think the AC team has a list of suspected cheaters that they don't do anything about while requesting random demos from everyone else so they can ban them for shits and giggles, then sure, there's no point to any of this.
[/quote]
Random checks do not catch people for cheating, they are incentive for players to record all of their matches so AC knows those demos exist when they request them for AC purposes. This isn't controversial, and is freely admitted by all RGL staff I've talked to. I also never claimed that they shouldn't happen- just that missing one should be forgiven after a reasonable length of time (aka: not 4 years).

And yeah, the AC team in RGL is hugely understaffed and ineffective so there really is no point to them making sure people have their demos anyways. Their excuse for not opening cases against known cheaters in the past has been "nobody submitted a formal report". Nobody outside of exa/sigafoo/the AC team knows how many people are actually in it- but my educated guess is no more than 3 active members and its also likely none of them are super active in the community.



[quote=Setsul]
Do you seriously believe the guy just won the lottery?
Recorded all those demos except those three and RGL magically managed to request exactly those three?
Come on, go back and check how many demos that were requested from him he did upload.
And no, the three month ban is not meant to be inconsequential. The guy got banned for two weeks for failing to upload a demo three months ago. What is RGL supposed to do? Give up because he just can't be bothered and banning him isn't working?[/quote]
Antler's specific case is an example of the rule punishing somebody innocent, but isn't the end all be all of what makes this rule stupid.
The concept of warnings not expiring for 4 years for something this trivial is just silly, and I don't feel like it should be controversial at all.
64
#64
9 Frags +
nablaRandom checks do not catch people for cheating, they are incentive for players to record all of their matches so AC knows those demos exist when they request them for AC purposes.

And the hill you've chosen to die on is the case of the guy who failed with that "incentive" and a ban twice in three months.
So your suggestion is what, exactly? That he shouldn't have been banned on the second offence? That he shouldn't be banned now for the third? Because unless you're suggesting it should all be forgotten after every season or 3 months he absolutely would've been banned by now.
What exactly is the "incentive" if there are no consequences?
Do you honestly believe he would've started consistently recording demos without the ban? Or would he have failed the next check as well?

nablaAntler's specific case is an example of the rule punishing somebody innocent, but isn't the end all be all of what makes this rule stupid.

Innocent? In what sense? He broke a rule, he's being punished for that. That rule is the obligation to upload demos when requested.
Is he innocent in the sense that he didn't cheat? Probably. Maybe. WE CAN'T FUCKING KNOW BECAUSE HE WON'T UPLOAD HIS DEMOS.

[quote=nabla]
Random checks do not catch people for cheating, they are incentive for players to record all of their matches so AC knows those demos exist when they request them for AC purposes.[/quote]
And the hill you've chosen to die on is the case of the guy who failed with that "incentive" and a ban twice in three months.
So your suggestion is what, exactly? That he shouldn't have been banned on the second offence? That he shouldn't be banned now for the third? Because unless you're suggesting it should all be forgotten after every season or 3 months he absolutely would've been banned by now.
What exactly is the "incentive" if there are no consequences?
Do you honestly believe he would've started consistently recording demos without the ban? Or would he have failed the next check as well?

[quote=nabla]
Antler's specific case is an example of the rule punishing somebody innocent, but isn't the end all be all of what makes this rule stupid.[/quote]
Innocent? In what sense? He broke a rule, he's being punished for that. That rule is the obligation to upload demos when requested.
Is he innocent in the sense that he didn't cheat? Probably. Maybe. WE CAN'T FUCKING KNOW BECAUSE HE WON'T UPLOAD HIS DEMOS.
65
#65
-10 Frags +
SetsulAnd the hill you've chosen to die on is the case of the guy who failed with that "incentive" and a ban twice in three months.
So your suggestion is what, exactly? That he shouldn't have been banned on the second offence? That he shouldn't be banned now for the third? Because unless you're suggesting it should all be forgotten after every season or 3 months he absolutely would've been banned by now.
What exactly is the "incentive" if there are no consequences?
Do you honestly believe he would've started consistently recording demos without the ban? Or would he have failed the next check as well?

Innocent? In what sense? He broke a rule, he's being punished for that. That rule is the obligation to upload demos when requested.
Is he innocent in the sense that he didn't cheat? Probably. Maybe. WE CAN'T FUCKING KNOW BECAUSE HE WON'T UPLOAD HIS DEMOS.

He shouldn't be banned as if it his his third offense when his first warning was 1.5 years ago and most normal people agree should have expired. This should be a 2 week ban.

Failing demo checks is largely something that punishes players innocent of cheating and this is by design so that all players will record demos. Since this is known and acknowledged it should also follow that the rule includes ways for players who are clearly not malicious to have some sort of forgiveness so that a moment of negligence doesn't result in them being banned for an entire season over two warnings they incurred potentially four years ago.

[quote=Setsul]
And the hill you've chosen to die on is the case of the guy who failed with that "incentive" and a ban twice in three months.
So your suggestion is what, exactly? That he shouldn't have been banned on the second offence? That he shouldn't be banned now for the third? Because unless you're suggesting it should all be forgotten after every season or 3 months he absolutely would've been banned by now.
What exactly is the "incentive" if there are no consequences?
Do you honestly believe he would've started consistently recording demos without the ban? Or would he have failed the next check as well?

Innocent? In what sense? He broke a rule, he's being punished for that. That rule is the obligation to upload demos when requested.
Is he innocent in the sense that he didn't cheat? Probably. Maybe. WE CAN'T FUCKING KNOW BECAUSE HE WON'T UPLOAD HIS DEMOS.[/quote]
He shouldn't be banned as if it his his third offense when his first warning was 1.5 years ago and most normal people agree should have expired. This should be a 2 week ban.

Failing demo checks is largely something that punishes players innocent of cheating and this is by design so that all players will record demos. Since this is known and acknowledged it should also follow that the rule includes ways for players who are clearly not malicious to have some sort of forgiveness so that a moment of negligence doesn't result in them being banned for an entire season over two warnings they incurred potentially four years ago.
66
#66
22 Frags +

"most normal people agree"
I see you have done a survey with one participant.
And anyone who disagrees with you is abnormal.

But these warnings weren't four years ago.
And we're back to "players who are clearly not malicious" aka "players who don't cheat in my opinion" shouldn't have to suffer penalties if they break "minor" rules.

Honestly, you might as well go back to good old traditional ostrakismos. Get everyone together in the city square and write the name of who you want to ban on a pottery shard.

"most normal people agree"
I see you have done a survey with one participant.
And anyone who disagrees with you is abnormal.

But these warnings weren't four years ago.
And we're back to "players who are clearly not malicious" aka "players who don't cheat in my opinion" shouldn't have to suffer penalties if they break "minor" rules.

Honestly, you might as well go back to good old traditional [i]ostrakismos[/i]. Get everyone together in the city square and write the name of who you want to ban on a pottery shard.
67
#67
24 Frags +
nablaSince this is known and acknowledged it should also follow that the rule includes ways for players who are clearly not malicious to have some sort of forgiveness so that a moment of negligence doesn't result in them being banned for an entire season over two warnings they incurred potentially four years ago.

A moment of negligence is not being punished though? You aren't getting banned after your first infraction, you only get a warning unless it was a playoff match iirc. If you still fail to record demos after that there is something wrong with your config setup, hard-drive, you simply don't care, or you just forgot about the rule again after being warned about it already.

Wait, oh... https://rgl.gg/Public/PlayerProfile.aspx?p=76561198066923067

RGL 10/15/2020 10/15/2020 Failure to Submit Demos: 1st Offense
RGL 10/2/2021 10/16/2021 Failure to Submit Demos: 2nd Offense

Now this discussion makes more sense.

[quote=nabla]Since this is known and acknowledged it should also follow that the rule includes ways for players who are clearly not malicious to have some sort of forgiveness so that a moment of negligence doesn't result in them being banned for an entire season over two warnings they incurred potentially four years ago.[/quote]
A moment of negligence is not being punished though? You aren't getting banned after your first infraction, you only get a warning unless it was a playoff match iirc. If you still fail to record demos after that there is something wrong with your config setup, hard-drive, you simply don't care, or you just forgot about the rule again after being warned about it already.

Wait, oh... https://rgl.gg/Public/PlayerProfile.aspx?p=76561198066923067
[quote]
RGL 10/15/2020 10/15/2020 Failure to Submit Demos: 1st Offense
RGL 10/2/2021 10/16/2021 Failure to Submit Demos: 2nd Offense[/quote]
Now this discussion makes more sense.
68
#68
10 Frags +

I just witnessed an execution.

I just witnessed an execution.
69
#69
-4 Frags +
Dave_the_IrateI don't play RGL, but I don't understand why you think this timeframe is unreasonable. Does RGL have considerably more requests than ETF2L? Because I've had to provide POV demos about 3 times in ~5 years and over 150 officials. I think 4 years strikes a balance between not punishing genuine ancient history, without removing the consequences for not recording. What do you regard as a better timeframe?

It seems this recently banned player has failed to provide demos 3 times in under two years, which is clearly a severe lack of diligence on their part if not something malicious. Has this player actually provided a demo at all in that time, or are people defending someone who has just repeatedly failed to provide demos?

RGL random checks are 1 player per team in each match (assuming the div admins actually follow through with policy, which not all do)
If you play 6s actively this averages to 8 demo checks per year (16 matches * 3 seasons * 1/6th chance), and the chance also rises slightly if you play HL.

Assuming the normal ETF2L player has a similar experience to you and has provided 3 per demos per 5 years (0.6 per year) this would mean you submit roughly 13x the amount of the demos in RGL than ETF2L.

I personally have been demo checked 5 times since random demo checks started getting enforced (roughly a year ago) and I've played about 20 officials in that time between 6s and HL.

[quote=Dave_the_Irate]
I don't play RGL, but I don't understand why you think this timeframe is unreasonable. Does RGL have considerably more requests than ETF2L? Because I've had to provide POV demos about 3 times in ~5 years and over 150 officials. I think 4 years strikes a balance between not punishing genuine ancient history, without removing the consequences for not recording. What do you regard as a better timeframe?

It seems this recently banned player has failed to provide demos 3 times in under two years, which is clearly a severe lack of diligence on their part if not something malicious. Has this player actually provided a demo at all in that time, or are people defending someone who has just repeatedly failed to provide demos?[/quote]
RGL random checks are 1 player per team in each match (assuming the div admins actually follow through with policy, which not all do)
If you play 6s actively this averages to 8 demo checks per year (16 matches * 3 seasons * 1/6th chance), and the chance also rises slightly if you play HL.

Assuming the normal ETF2L player has a similar experience to you and has provided 3 per demos per 5 years (0.6 per year) this would mean you submit roughly 13x the amount of the demos in RGL than ETF2L.

I personally have been demo checked 5 times since random demo checks started getting enforced (roughly a year ago) and I've played about 20 officials in that time between 6s and HL.
70
#70
-21 Frags +

Usually I'd say someone who's dumb enough to not record demos three times is too dumb to be allowed to play TF2

But then again, he is American. Poor guy has been chugging corn syrup and fluoride every day of his life. Surely there can be some leniency for the developmentally disabled?

Are we an inclusive community, or are we not?

Usually I'd say someone who's dumb enough to not record demos three times is too dumb to be allowed to play TF2

But then again, he is American. Poor guy has been chugging corn syrup and fluoride every day of his life. Surely there can be some leniency for the developmentally disabled?

Are we an inclusive community, or are we not?
71
#71
-4 Frags +

waiting for mikemat funny video

waiting for mikemat funny video
72
#72
-13 Frags +

can the german computer guy please leave this thread and go fix instagram

please bro

can the german computer guy please leave this thread and go fix instagram


please bro
73
#73
7 Frags +
dot_can the german computer guy please leave this thread and go fix instagram

please bro

No, the Lizardman turned off his internet, so I can't reach him.

[quote=dot_]can the german computer guy please leave this thread and go fix instagram


please bro[/quote]
No, the Lizardman turned off his internet, so I can't reach him.
74
#74
-18 Frags +
SamusIt's rare that a demo recording ends up being corrupted in a way you cannot fix it anymore.

this whole game barely works lets not pretend its simple and easy. peoples demos fuck up all the time. either come up with a better method of collecting demos or give a little leeway in weird cases like this. this is a small community league, admins should be able to use some level of discretion

This thread is just so weird, there were some events about RGL league staff being inconsistent in the past where I agreed with the complaints, but now you guys complain about RGL NOT being inconsistent?

there are multiple people on this website with different opinions

"Hey, that guy always casts some of our matches, let's overlook this demo infraction; hey, this guy is a 6s admin, let's just forget about them harassing others multiple times; hey, this guy donated $100 last week, let's overlook the time he used the Spy decloak script in the official."

being a 6s admin doesnt fuck up your demos. harassing other people isnt a demo infraction. donating money doesnt fuck up your demos. spy decloak script isnt a demo infraction. ur either intentionally ignoring the point or just completely missing it

casting this game already seems like a pain in the ass, it would be cool if it didnt have a x% chance of getting u league banned as well

[quote=Samus]It's rare that a demo recording ends up being corrupted in a way you cannot fix it anymore.[/quote]
this whole game barely works lets not pretend its simple and easy. peoples demos fuck up all the time. either come up with a better method of collecting demos or give a little leeway in weird cases like this. this is a small community league, admins should be able to use some level of discretion

[quote]This thread is just so weird, there were some events about RGL league staff being inconsistent in the past where I agreed with the complaints, but now you guys complain about RGL NOT being inconsistent?[/quote]
there are multiple people on this website with different opinions

[quote]"Hey, that guy always casts some of our matches, let's overlook this demo infraction; hey, this guy is a 6s admin, let's just forget about them harassing others multiple times; hey, this guy donated $100 last week, let's overlook the time he used the Spy decloak script in the official."[/quote]
being a 6s admin doesnt fuck up your demos. harassing other people isnt a demo infraction. donating money doesnt fuck up your demos. spy decloak script isnt a demo infraction. ur either intentionally ignoring the point or just completely missing it

casting this game already seems like a pain in the ass, it would be cool if it didnt have a x% chance of getting u league banned as well
75
#75
16 Frags +
brodySamusIt's rare that a demo recording ends up being corrupted in a way you cannot fix it anymore.this whole game barely works lets not pretend its simple and easy. peoples demos fuck up all the time. either come up with a better method of collecting demos or give a little leeway in weird cases like this.

idk man most of europe has been able to handle it for the past decade

[quote=brody][quote=Samus]It's rare that a demo recording ends up being corrupted in a way you cannot fix it anymore.[/quote]
this whole game barely works lets not pretend its simple and easy. peoples demos fuck up all the time. either come up with a better method of collecting demos or give a little leeway in weird cases like this.[/quote]

idk man most of europe has been able to handle it for the past decade
76
#76
16 Frags +
brodySamusIt's rare that a demo recording ends up being corrupted in a way you cannot fix it anymore.this whole game barely works lets not pretend its simple and easy. peoples demos fuck up all the time. either come up with a better method of collecting demos or give a little leeway in weird cases like this. this is a small community league, admins should be able to use some level of discretion
This thread is just so weird, there were some events about RGL league staff being inconsistent in the past where I agreed with the complaints, but now you guys complain about RGL NOT being inconsistent?there are multiple people on this website with different opinions
"Hey, that guy always casts some of our matches, let's overlook this demo infraction; hey, this guy is a 6s admin, let's just forget about them harassing others multiple times; hey, this guy donated $100 last week, let's overlook the time he used the Spy decloak script in the official."being a 6s admin doesnt fuck up your demos. harassing other people isnt a demo infraction. donating money doesnt fuck up your demos. spy decloak script isnt a demo infraction. ur either intentionally ignoring the point or just completely missing it

casting this game already seems like a pain in the ass, it would be cool if it didnt have a x% chance of getting u league banned as well

damn dude you have it all figured out, you should deffo be running a league

[quote=brody][quote=Samus]It's rare that a demo recording ends up being corrupted in a way you cannot fix it anymore.[/quote]
this whole game barely works lets not pretend its simple and easy. peoples demos fuck up all the time. either come up with a better method of collecting demos or give a little leeway in weird cases like this. this is a small community league, admins should be able to use some level of discretion

[quote]This thread is just so weird, there were some events about RGL league staff being inconsistent in the past where I agreed with the complaints, but now you guys complain about RGL NOT being inconsistent?[/quote]
there are multiple people on this website with different opinions

[quote]"Hey, that guy always casts some of our matches, let's overlook this demo infraction; hey, this guy is a 6s admin, let's just forget about them harassing others multiple times; hey, this guy donated $100 last week, let's overlook the time he used the Spy decloak script in the official."[/quote]
being a 6s admin doesnt fuck up your demos. harassing other people isnt a demo infraction. donating money doesnt fuck up your demos. spy decloak script isnt a demo infraction. ur either intentionally ignoring the point or just completely missing it

casting this game already seems like a pain in the ass, it would be cool if it didnt have a x% chance of getting u league banned as well[/quote]


damn dude you have it all figured out, you should deffo be running a league
77
#77
-4 Frags +
brody

the game works plenty fine when it comes to recording demos and pretending like it doesnt isnt doing u any favors. idk how ppl can sympathize with antlers in this tbh, but what i think is the best way to go about this is keeping the ban on his profile but removing the duration. then if he manages to fuck up for the 4th time no excuses.

[quote=brody][/quote]
the game works plenty fine when it comes to recording demos and pretending like it doesnt isnt doing u any favors. idk how ppl can sympathize with antlers in this tbh, but what i think is the best way to go about this is keeping the ban on his profile but removing the duration. then if he manages to fuck up for the 4th time no excuses.
78
#78
4 Frags +

https://youtu.be/9cL13iXYfgk

https://youtu.be/9cL13iXYfgk
79
#79
23 Frags +

last season my demos got requested 4 weeks in a row cause the bot they use to randomly select players decided to cause the anticheat team pain by forcing them to watch me feed

but i recorded all of them cause its legitimately not fucking hard to do and some of yall are being really stupid about this

last season my demos got requested 4 weeks in a row cause the bot they use to randomly select players decided to cause the anticheat team pain by forcing them to watch me feed

but i recorded all of them cause its legitimately not fucking hard to do and some of yall are being really stupid about this
80
#80
-1 Frags +

Nerd essay because I feel weird about this ban length >:-(
Mostly because I feel like if I were antlers, I would literally just quit after this lol. Never interacted with him before but I really don't want an amateur caster to quit or not be able to play with his friends :-(

setsulYou do realise that everyone's been complaining about RGL always bending the rules, and now you're asking them to bend the rules?

I feel like this isn't true though lol? People have definitely been asking RGL admins to use discretion in their decisions...
People just want admins to not make totally arbitrary decisions (banning safrix for rhyming with the n-word in a private server before a scrim), but still apply intelligent discretion (maybe don't ban the guy who accidentally spec'd like 10 seconds before a match ended.) These are not opposed at all imo.

(clockwork's were the first posts I could think of and people always changes their opinions after the cool invite player posts.)

clkwrkthis is fucking tf2. there are not many people who play this game and cultivating a "for the community" approach should be the number 1 priority for the league. handing out severe punishments for even the most minor of offenses will do nothing but thin the playerbase. and there's nothing in this game but pride, so if they get banned and lose out on a season of playing the game, they might just not play the next season. i've seen similar things happen many times before, with players much more well known who have a lot more to lose. pure literally quit our team in esea after they didn't let us reschedule or fix a payment issue that left us forfeiting our first match. he felt that it wasn't worth the headache to play for a league that clearly wasn't player-focused at all. and that had a significant effect on the outcome of that season. we were one of the best teams pre-season and easily would've been fighting for first place had that not happened. that's the kind of shit you risk when a league makes it too difficult to play a game you only play for fun.

--------

setsulThere should never be a "cast x games, allowed to cheat once" type of deal. The whole "but does he really need to record demos if he's not cheating" argument is garbage.

This is kind of a disingenuous reading of the situation... It's more like "The lowest scoring roamer in his division who no one suspects of cheating and contributes to the community by casting amateur matches in his free time in such a way that his config sometimes gets screwed up should not be banned for a whole season for a violating a rule that only exists to enforce other rules against cheating."

Antlers ~should~ record his demos, but fundamentally it doesn't really matter... Did anyone actually think that he was cheating? He got caught up in a rule that only exists to make it easier to enforce other rules. (If this rule didn't exist, real cheaters would have a much easier time saying "oopsies I don't have my demos" when directly requested. Otherwise, this rule would literally not need to exist. I highly doubt that the "random checks" are thorough...)

and that leads to my biggest gripe with this... Even IF he was cheating, had recorded the demo, and it provided evidence that he was cheating, I have a feeling that the rgl admins wouldn't really look at the demo and he would still get to play next season -_- It's not a "does he need to record demos if he's not cheating?", it's a "would he be banned right now if he had submitted a demo of him cheating?"

-----------

IMO, the "general" solution to this:
1. If you miss three demo requests, you get banned.
2. If all of the demo requests are "random," the ban is for a week or two. (Enough to scare people into recording demos, but not enough that people will just quit and hopefully not kill teams.)
3. If any of the requests are because you are legitimately suspected of cheating, you get banned for the three months. (Enough to stop cheaters from playing)
4. If rgl admin read this, please be applied intelligently so people don't quit this dying game.

Nerd essay because I feel weird about this ban length >:-(
Mostly because I feel like if I were antlers, I would literally just quit after this lol. Never interacted with him before but I really don't want an amateur caster to quit or not be able to play with his friends :-(

[quote=setsul]
You do realise that everyone's been complaining about RGL always bending the rules, and now you're asking them to bend the rules?
[/quote]

I feel like this isn't true though lol? People have definitely been asking RGL admins to use discretion in their decisions...
People just want admins to not make totally arbitrary decisions (banning safrix for rhyming with the n-word in a private server before a scrim), but still apply intelligent discretion (maybe don't ban the guy who accidentally spec'd like 10 seconds before a match ended.) These are not opposed at all imo.

(clockwork's were the first posts I could think of and people always changes their opinions after the cool invite player posts.)

[quote=clkwrk]
[b]this is fucking tf2. there are not many people who play this game and cultivating a "for the community" approach should be the number 1 priority for the league. handing out severe punishments for even the most minor of offenses will do nothing but thin the playerbase. and there's nothing in this game but pride, so if they get banned and lose out on a season of playing the game, they might just not play the next season.[/b] i've seen similar things happen many times before, with players much more well known who have a lot more to lose. [b]pure literally quit our team in esea after they didn't let us reschedule or fix a payment issue that left us forfeiting our first match.[/b] he felt that it wasn't worth the headache to play for a league that clearly wasn't player-focused at all. and that had a significant effect on the outcome of that season. we were one of the best teams pre-season and easily would've been fighting for first place had that not happened. that's the kind of shit you risk when a league makes it too difficult to play a game you only play for fun.
[/quote]
--------

[quote=setsul]
There should never be a "cast x games, allowed to cheat once" type of deal. The whole "but does he really need to record demos if he's not cheating" argument is garbage.
[/quote]

This is kind of a disingenuous reading of the situation... It's more like "The lowest scoring roamer in his division who no one suspects of cheating and contributes to the community by casting amateur matches in his free time in such a way that his config sometimes gets screwed up should not be banned for a whole season for a violating a rule that only exists to enforce other rules against cheating."

Antlers ~should~ record his demos, but fundamentally it doesn't really matter... Did anyone actually think that he was cheating? He got caught up in a rule that only exists to make it easier to enforce other rules. (If this rule didn't exist, real cheaters would have a much easier time saying "oopsies I don't have my demos" when directly requested. Otherwise, this rule would literally not need to exist. I highly doubt that the "random checks" are thorough...)

and that leads to my biggest gripe with this... Even IF he was cheating, had recorded the demo, and it provided evidence that he was cheating, I have a feeling that the rgl admins wouldn't really look at the demo and he would still get to play next season -_- It's not a "does he need to record demos if he's not cheating?", it's a "would he be banned right now if he had submitted a demo of him cheating?"

-----------

IMO, the "general" solution to this:
1. If you miss three demo requests, you get banned.
2. If all of the demo requests are "random," the ban is for a week or two. (Enough to scare people into recording demos, but not enough that people will just quit and hopefully not kill teams.)
3. If any of the requests are because you are legitimately suspected of cheating, you get banned for the three months. (Enough to stop cheaters from playing)
4. If rgl admin read this, please be applied intelligently so people don't quit this dying game.
81
#81
21 Frags +

esea client auto recorded your demos
rgl doesnt have an anti cheat client

admins are picking random people just to see if they're actually recording their demos because its our responsibility to do so
doesnt matter if you're bad or good it'll save your butt from 1. having demos when requested
2. if someone accuses you of cheating you'll have the demos provided because imagine being accused cheating and not having demos that wouldn't go to well for you now would it?

esea client auto recorded your demos
rgl doesnt have an anti cheat client

admins are picking random people just to see if they're actually recording their demos because its our responsibility to do so
doesnt matter if you're bad or good it'll save your butt from 1. having demos when requested
2. if someone accuses you of cheating you'll have the demos provided because imagine being accused cheating and not having demos that wouldn't go to well for you now would it?
82
#82
3 Frags +
Bob_MarleyNerd essay because I feel weird about this ban length >:-(
Mostly because I feel like if I were antlers, I would literally just quit after this lol. Never interacted with him before but I really don't want an amateur caster to quit or not be able to play with his friends :-(

i can confirm that antlers has said hes more or less done with 6s because of this incident.

[quote=Bob_Marley]Nerd essay because I feel weird about this ban length >:-(
Mostly because I feel like if I were antlers, I would literally just quit after this lol. Never interacted with him before but I really don't want an amateur caster to quit or not be able to play with his friends :-(
[/quote]
i can confirm that antlers has said hes more or less done with 6s because of this incident.
83
#83
-9 Frags +
messiahesea client auto recorded your demos
rgl doesnt have an anti cheat client

admins are picking random people just to see if they're actually recording their demos because its our responsibility to do so
doesnt matter if you're bad or good it'll save your butt from 1. having demos when requested
2. if someone accuses you of cheating you'll have the demos provided because imagine being accused cheating and not having demos that wouldn't go to well for you now would it?

these demo requests are allegedly random but then certain people gets requested multiple times in a row

[quote=messiah]esea client auto recorded your demos
rgl doesnt have an anti cheat client

admins are picking random people just to see if they're actually recording their demos because its our responsibility to do so
doesnt matter if you're bad or good it'll save your butt from 1. having demos when requested
2. if someone accuses you of cheating you'll have the demos provided because imagine being accused cheating and not having demos that wouldn't go to well for you now would it?[/quote]

these demo requests are allegedly random but then certain people gets requested multiple times in a row
84
#84
14 Frags +
Bob_MarleyI feel like this isn't true though lol? People have definitely been asking RGL admins to use discretion in their decisions...

If admin discretion comes down to "please use admin discretion to not ban me even though I clearly broke a rule, think of the community" then it doesn't work.

Bob_MarleyThis is kind of a disingenuous reading of the situation... It's more like "The lowest scoring roamer in his division who no one suspects of cheating and contributes to the community by casting amateur matches in his free time in such a way that his config sometimes gets screwed up should not be banned for a whole season for a violating a rule that only exists to enforce other rules against cheating."

Antlers ~should~ record his demos, but fundamentally it doesn't really matter... Did anyone actually think that he was cheating? He got caught up in a rule that only exists to make it easier to enforce other rules. (If this rule didn't exist, real cheaters would have a much easier time saying "oopsies I don't have my demos" when directly requested. Otherwise, this rule would literally not need to exist. I highly doubt that the "random checks" are thorough...)

This is still "he's too bad to be cheating, so he should get a free pass on not submitting demos." That's not how that rule works.
I have never heard of a caster who failed to restore his playing config after casting so often. Like I said, after the first ban he could've asked literally anyone for a method of avoiding that and they would've told them. Hell, I could've told him, and I was only backup for a single cast. This is 100% on him.

Bob_MarleyIMO, the "general" solution to this:
1. If you miss three demo requests, you get banned.
2. If all of the demo requests are "random," the ban is for a week or two. (Enough to scare people into recording demos, but not enough that people will just quit and hopefully not kill teams.)
3. If any of the requests are because you are legitimately suspected of cheating, you get banned for the three months. (Enough to stop cheaters from playing)
4. If rgl admin read this, please be applied intelligently so people don't quit this dying game.

You're arguing for different rules for different people again. It is fundamentally unjust to have different punishments for the same infraction, just because someone accused you of cheating with no proof.

And he did get banned for two weeks. It did not scare him into recording demos. So what do you suggest should happen after that? A longer ban? Guess what, that's exactly what happened. A two week ban again? It didn't work the first time, why should it work now? No ban at all, just give up because surely he's not cheating if he's that bad?
None of those are solutions.

[quote=Bob_Marley]
I feel like this isn't true though lol? People have definitely been asking RGL admins to use discretion in their decisions...
[/quote]
If admin discretion comes down to "please use admin discretion to not ban me even though I clearly broke a rule, think of the community" then it doesn't work.

[quote=Bob_Marley]This is kind of a disingenuous reading of the situation... It's more like "The lowest scoring roamer in his division who no one suspects of cheating and contributes to the community by casting amateur matches in his free time in such a way that his config sometimes gets screwed up should not be banned for a whole season for a violating a rule that only exists to enforce other rules against cheating."

Antlers ~should~ record his demos, but fundamentally it doesn't really matter... Did anyone actually think that he was cheating? He got caught up in a rule that only exists to make it easier to enforce other rules. (If this rule didn't exist, real cheaters would have a much easier time saying "oopsies I don't have my demos" when directly requested. Otherwise, this rule would literally not need to exist. I highly doubt that the "random checks" are thorough...)[/quote]
This is still "he's too bad to be cheating, so he should get a free pass on not submitting demos." That's not how that rule works.
I have never heard of a caster who failed to restore his playing config after casting so often. Like I said, after the first ban he could've asked literally anyone for a method of avoiding that and they would've told them. Hell, I could've told him, and I was only backup for a single cast. This is 100% on him.

[quote=Bob_Marley]
IMO, the "general" solution to this:
1. If you miss three demo requests, you get banned.
2. If all of the demo requests are "random," the ban is for a week or two. (Enough to scare people into recording demos, but not enough that people will just quit and hopefully not kill teams.)
3. If any of the requests are because you are legitimately suspected of cheating, you get banned for the three months. (Enough to stop cheaters from playing)
4. If rgl admin read this, please be applied intelligently so people don't quit this dying game.[/quote]
You're arguing for different rules for different people again. It is fundamentally unjust to have different punishments for the same infraction, just because someone accused you of cheating with no proof.

And he did get banned for two weeks. It did not scare him into recording demos. So what do you suggest should happen after that? A longer ban? Guess what, that's exactly what happened. A two week ban again? It didn't work the first time, why should it work now? No ban at all, just give up because surely he's not cheating if he's that bad?
None of those are solutions.
85
#85
-15 Frags +

setsul the kind of german who'd execute villagers for being partisans/franc-tireurs after a friendly-fire incident. Have you considered antlers might just be clumsy and dumb about it and rgl could show here that it does care a bit for people that put the work in for the community, fucking up. i totally agree with bob marley here

setsul the kind of german who'd execute villagers for being partisans/franc-tireurs after a friendly-fire incident. Have you considered antlers might just be clumsy and dumb about it and rgl could show here that it does care a bit for people that put the work in for the community, fucking up. i totally agree with bob marley here
86
#86
25 Frags +

i like the guy who got banned so the rules shouldnt apply to him the same way it does to people i dont like

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E9UCvGiXoAU0iSN.jpg

i like the guy who got banned so the rules shouldnt apply to him the same way it does to people i dont like
[img]https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E9UCvGiXoAU0iSN.jpg[/img]
87
#87
-13 Frags +
Wandumi like the guy who got banned so the rules shouldnt apply to him the same way it does to people i dont like
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E9UCvGiXoAU0iSN.jpg

Yes.

[quote=Wandum]i like the guy who got banned so the rules shouldnt apply to him the same way it does to people i dont like
[img]https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E9UCvGiXoAU0iSN.jpg[/img][/quote]
Yes.
88
#88
19 Frags +

This brings me back to the time a certain unnamed sniper in RGL-Invite had his demos requested. He didn't have them, so he just recorded a demo of him spycrabbing on an empty borneo server for 30 minutes. Sent the demo and nothing ever happened. Quality trolling if I do say so myself.

This brings me back to the time a certain unnamed sniper in RGL-Invite had his demos requested. He didn't have them, so he just recorded a demo of him spycrabbing on an empty borneo server for 30 minutes. Sent the demo and nothing ever happened. Quality trolling if I do say so myself.
89
#89
17 Frags +
sacsetsul the kind of german who'd execute villagers for being partisans/franc-tireurs after a friendly-fire incident. Have you considered antlers might just be clumsy and dumb about it and rgl could show here that it does care a bit for people that put the work in for the community, fucking up. i totally agree with bob marley here

this thread is wild. antlers runs production. he knows what he's doing. it's literally a 10 second process to swap out production configs. being forgetful is understandable but if you've had multiple warnings thats just fucking tough luck. if he quits over this that's hilarious; it's entirely his own doing.

my 5g conspiracy brain says you people want to/do cheat and are actively trying to weaken the ruleset so you can do it more easily

[quote=sac]setsul the kind of german who'd execute villagers for being partisans/franc-tireurs after a friendly-fire incident. Have you considered antlers might just be clumsy and dumb about it and rgl could show here that it does care a bit for people that put the work in for the community, fucking up. i totally agree with bob marley here[/quote]
this thread is wild. antlers runs production. he knows what he's doing. it's literally a 10 second process to swap out production configs. being forgetful is understandable but if you've had multiple warnings thats just fucking tough luck. if he quits over this that's hilarious; it's entirely his own doing.

my 5g conspiracy brain says you people want to/do cheat and are actively trying to weaken the ruleset so you can do it more easily
90
#90
EssentialsTF
18 Frags +
sacsetsul the kind of german who'd execute villagers for being partisans/franc-tireurs after a friendly-fire incident. Have you considered antlers might just be clumsy and dumb about it and rgl could show here that it does care a bit for people that put the work in for the community, fucking up. i totally agree with bob marley here

"Rules for thee, but not for me"

Also good job conflating war crimes with a videogame league.

[quote=sac]setsul the kind of german who'd execute villagers for being partisans/franc-tireurs after a friendly-fire incident. Have you considered antlers might just be clumsy and dumb about it and rgl could show here that it does care a bit for people that put the work in for the community, fucking up. i totally agree with bob marley here[/quote]

"Rules for thee, but not for me"

Also good job conflating war crimes with a videogame league.
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