Upvote Upvoted 53 Downvote Downvoted
1 2 3 4
ban iron bomber and market gardener for s39
31
#31
30 Frags +
Gritomawould you feel better about the iron bomber if the other launchers had their pipe hitboxes actually encompass the projectile?

is it that the iron bombers too easy to hit, or is it that it trumps the alternatives by default?

I live in fear of "fixed" loose cannon.

[quote=Gritoma]would you feel better about the iron bomber if the other launchers had their pipe hitboxes actually encompass the projectile?

is it that the iron bombers too easy to hit, or is it that it trumps the alternatives by default?[/quote]
I live in fear of "fixed" loose cannon.
32
#32
11 Frags +

Id rather ban the Solemn Vow than the Iron Bomber, if we were just banning two.

Seems so odd to me that a weapon is allowed that basically negates a not insignificant amount of game intelligence and gives free info in a lot of cases. Sure a good medic should know the ubers, but there are times when it can be lost or you're not sure how well the enemy have built. Knowing enemy health is crazy too.

Yeah an ubersaw gives some uber, but you might use that once or twice a match at most. The Solemn Vow you can use every fight or stalemate. You could argue that both meds will be using it, but why make the game less cerebral?

Feel free to convince me otherwise.

Id rather ban the Solemn Vow than the Iron Bomber, if we were just banning two.

Seems so odd to me that a weapon is allowed that basically negates a not insignificant amount of game intelligence and gives free info in a lot of cases. Sure a good medic should know the ubers, but there are times when it can be lost or you're not sure how well the enemy have built. Knowing enemy health is crazy too.

Yeah an ubersaw gives some uber, but you might use that once or twice a match at most. The Solemn Vow you can use every fight or stalemate. You could argue that both meds will be using it, but why make the game less cerebral?

Feel free to convince me otherwise.
33
#33
9 Frags +
Lupusnot defending iron bomber AT ALL but you guys realise Lukas plays on like 60-70 ping average right?

true

[quote=Lupus]not defending iron bomber AT ALL but you guys realise Lukas plays on like 60-70 ping average right?[/quote]

true
34
#34
-13 Frags +

still bullshit direct rockets wouldnt do that on 70 ping

all he had to do is know what direction tge scoot was going any flail to the right woulda hit

still bullshit direct rockets wouldnt do that on 70 ping

all he had to do is know what direction tge scoot was going any flail to the right woulda hit
35
#35
39 Frags +
funhaver1998still bullshit direct rockets wouldnt do that on 70 ping

all he had to do is know what direction tge scoot was going any flail to the right woulda hit

isnt demoman class about predicting where the enemy is going to be?

[quote=funhaver1998]still bullshit direct rockets wouldnt do that on 70 ping

all he had to do is know what direction tge scoot was going any flail to the right woulda hit[/quote]

isnt demoman class about predicting where the enemy is going to be?
36
#36
46 Frags +

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/762445756946448384/846739242146594876/6.png

[img] https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/762445756946448384/846739242146594876/6.png[/img]
37
#37
0 Frags +

now THAT i can get behind

now THAT i can get behind
38
#38
27 Frags +

giving soldiers a fucking 1 shot gimmick weapon based on tf2's awful melee hit reg is giga fucking cringe

honestly if iron bomber projectiles just matched the hit box i wouldn't mind it, just sucks when shit looks like it's miles away from you (or behind you for that matter) and you just suddenly eat shit

giving soldiers a fucking 1 shot gimmick weapon based on tf2's awful melee hit reg is giga fucking cringe

honestly if iron bomber projectiles just matched the hit box i wouldn't mind it, just sucks when shit looks like it's miles away from you (or behind you for that matter) and you just suddenly eat shit
39
#39
-18 Frags +

the med mains in this thread are fuming. at least in NA jay and soapy are the only players who make the spoon look good everyone else sucks with it it absolutely doesn't need to be banned. obv the thread is for europe and u guys can do what u want but i cannot believe how mad you guys are

the med mains in this thread are fuming. at least in NA jay and soapy are the only players who make the spoon look good everyone else sucks with it it absolutely doesn't need to be banned. obv the thread is for europe and u guys can do what u want but i cannot believe how mad you guys are
40
#40
-10 Frags +

no i think it should be comparable with rocket's hit box in terms of it actually touches. it shoudl be a fixed arc, faster and smaller rocket with delayed explosion time.

the projectile should touch him like how a rocket will always touch, regardless of ping, on both people's screens

just flailing in the general direction shouldnt hit

no i think it should be comparable with rocket's hit box in terms of it actually touches. it shoudl be a fixed arc, faster and smaller rocket with delayed explosion time.

the projectile should touch him like how a rocket will always touch, regardless of ping, on both people's screens

just flailing in the general direction shouldnt hit
41
#41
22 Frags +

my pov https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7WpTswmw0-I

looks fine to me. lukas ping just makes it look extra scuffed on his end or someshit idk i'm just a scout main

my pov https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7WpTswmw0-I

looks fine to me. lukas ping just makes it look extra scuffed on his end or someshit idk i'm just a scout main
42
#42
6 Frags +

Banning iron bomber is equivalent to a demo nerf

Banning iron bomber is equivalent to a demo nerf
43
#43
-1 Frags +

Cope

Cope
44
#44
6 Frags +

spoon is so fucking gay

spoon is so fucking gay
45
#45
0 Frags +
sheafBanning iron bomber is equivalent to a demo nerf

People keep saying this, but is that necessarily a bad thing for the game. Especially if it's nerfing a part of Demoman gameplay that leads to people feeling scammed a significant percentage of the time.

[quote=sheaf]Banning iron bomber is equivalent to a demo nerf[/quote]

People keep saying this, but is that necessarily a bad thing for the game. Especially if it's nerfing a part of Demoman gameplay that leads to people feeling scammed a significant percentage of the time.
46
#46
-2 Frags +
Mak
People keep saying this, but is that necessarily a bad thing for the game.

Thats a good question and one I didn't mean to obscure.
I personally stopped using the iron bomber even thought I only pub now out of some idealistic idea that its current mechanics are going to get patched out (LOL)
Perhaps nerfing demo's stickies was an appropriate decision by valve to balance demo in pubs, since it's still obviously very good
But 'fixing' the iron bomber is most importantly a nerf for demos to protect themselves in DM settings
So I think that is less called for.
I really wouldn't be opposed to keeping the iron bomber as is and buffing the other primaries
Politically, realistically, is this ever going to happen? no. I don't really concern myself with that though

[quote=Mak]

People keep saying this, but is that necessarily a bad thing for the game.[/quote]
Thats a good question and one I didn't mean to obscure.
I personally stopped using the iron bomber even thought I only pub now out of some idealistic idea that its current mechanics are going to get patched out (LOL)
Perhaps nerfing demo's stickies was an appropriate decision by valve to balance demo in pubs, since it's still obviously very good
But 'fixing' the iron bomber is most importantly a nerf for demos to protect themselves in DM settings
So I think that is less called for.
I really wouldn't be opposed to keeping the iron bomber as is and buffing the other primaries
Politically, realistically, is this ever going to happen? no. I don't really concern myself with that though
47
#47
15 Frags +

I do see where people are coming from, but you cannot compare the MG with stock shovel to make your point imo. You have to compare it with the skill stick, the standart weapon people use. Compared to that, the MG does have a downside.
Overall it is a fairly situational weapon and if someone puts in the extra time, effort to learn to use it properly and take the risk of failing ingame, then they should be rewarded when it works.
Being a medic main myself, I get that it can be frustrating to play against a good MG-soldier, but it being unfun for me shouldn't be a reason to ban a weapon.

Also, scouts still exist.

I do see where people are coming from, but you cannot compare the MG with stock shovel to make your point imo. You have to compare it with the skill stick, the standart weapon people use. Compared to that, the MG does have a downside.
Overall it is a fairly situational weapon and if someone puts in the extra time, effort to learn to use it properly and take the risk of failing ingame, then they should be rewarded when it works.
Being a medic main myself, I get that it can be frustrating to play against a good MG-soldier, but it being unfun for me shouldn't be a reason to ban a weapon.

Also, scouts still exist.
48
#48
16 Frags +
sheafBut 'fixing' the iron bomber is most importantly a nerf for demos to protect themselves in DM settings
So I think that is less called for.

Without wanting to sound condescending, demo is a lot better at defending itself than a lot of people give it credit for - it's a very old way of thinking that demos are helpless lambs without a scout protecting them :-P Yea demo is worse at protecting themselves compared to a scout or soldier but people have gotten good enough at demo mechanics to turn losing situations into winning situations fairly consistently.

Banning iron bomber wouldn't stop that from happening, it would just make it happen like 5% less and it's because a pipe that shouldn't hit actually misses or the enemy isn't stopped in their tracks by the pipe hitting slightly earlier than it should. A demo can still outplay their opponent but they don't get it for free in some freakish edge cases.

[quote=sheaf]But 'fixing' the iron bomber is most importantly a nerf for demos to protect themselves in DM settings
So I think that is less called for.[/quote]

Without wanting to sound condescending, demo is a lot better at defending itself than a lot of people give it credit for - it's a very old way of thinking that demos are helpless lambs without a scout protecting them :-P Yea demo is worse at protecting themselves compared to a scout or soldier but people have gotten good enough at demo mechanics to turn losing situations into winning situations fairly consistently.

Banning iron bomber wouldn't stop that from happening, it would just make it happen like 5% less and it's because a pipe that shouldn't hit [i]actually[/i] misses or the enemy isn't stopped in their tracks by the pipe hitting slightly earlier than it should. A demo can still outplay their opponent but they don't get it for free in some freakish edge cases.
49
#49
Process/Gullywash Refresh
11 Frags +

Didn't someone make a plugin that made the iron bomber projectile hitbox the same as default? Or am I confusing it with something else?

DCSOverall it is a fairly situational weapon and if someone puts in the extra time, effort to learn to use it properly and take the risk of failing ingame, then they should be rewarded when it works.
Being a medic main myself, I get that it can be frustrating to play against a good MG-soldier, but it being unfun for me shouldn't be a reason to ban a weapon.

Also, scouts still exist.

It's still a dumb 1-hit gimmick... I don't think "Just play better as a team" should be reason to keep a stupid mechanic in the game. If a mg solly gets enough speed there are many cases where it is impossible to dodge, even with a scout shooting them.

Didn't someone make a plugin that made the iron bomber projectile hitbox the same as default? Or am I confusing it with something else?

[quote=DCS]
Overall it is a fairly situational weapon and if someone puts in the extra time, effort to learn to use it properly and take the risk of failing ingame, then they should be rewarded when it works.
Being a medic main myself, I get that it can be frustrating to play against a good MG-soldier, but it being unfun for me shouldn't be a reason to ban a weapon.

Also, scouts still exist.[/quote]

It's still a dumb 1-hit gimmick... I don't think "Just play better as a team" should be reason to keep a stupid mechanic in the game. If a mg solly gets enough speed there are many cases where it is impossible to dodge, even with a scout shooting them.
50
#50
5 Frags +

I remember a similar thread was made for the Cow Mangler wasn't it? And that got banned because it was just a straight upgrade to the rocket launcher. Don't need ammo, you can't see the projectiles as good as rockets(atleast I couldn't), You could right click and 1shot a medic cross map.

BUT it also had a huge downside of doing only 20% damage to buildings (right click disabled a sentry but I don't think people used that often).

TL;DR = Cowmangler wasn't even as good as Iron bomber and still got banned, so imo ban Iron Bombeh ( also spoon is retarded)

I remember a similar thread was made for the Cow Mangler wasn't it? And that got banned because it was just a straight upgrade to the rocket launcher. Don't need ammo, you can't see the projectiles as good as rockets(atleast I couldn't), You could right click and 1shot a medic cross map.

BUT it also had a huge downside of doing only 20% damage to buildings (right click disabled a sentry but I don't think people used that often).

TL;DR = Cowmangler wasn't even as good as Iron bomber and still got banned, so imo ban Iron Bombeh ( also spoon is retarded)
51
#51
0 Frags +

I don't know if that's possible but I think the spoon could be tweaked rather than banned. I'm thinking about adding a longer deploy speed (like the caber, probably not as long though) cause it definitively takes some skill to use the spoon, but I feel like in some situations the exchange of one rocket (maybe not even shot by the player with the spoon) for 195 damage is a bit too strong. At the same time, the spoon has seen semi-widespread use only recently I think, so maybe I just need to get used to its presence more.

I don't know if that's possible but I think the spoon could be tweaked rather than banned. I'm thinking about adding a longer deploy speed (like the caber, probably not as long though) cause it definitively takes some skill to use the spoon, but I feel like in some situations the exchange of one rocket (maybe not even shot by the player with the spoon) for 195 damage is a bit too strong. At the same time, the spoon has seen semi-widespread use only recently I think, so maybe I just need to get used to its presence more.
52
#52
-29 Frags +

The only thing i don't understand is if the spoon was this op and the best weapon in the game (cuz based on what people say in the thread thats what they think) then why are there 3 prem/invite players combined that use it? Also to me it kinda looks like its only the salty medic mains crying who don't have good movement and haven't got very good awareness

About the iron bomber i don't think it should be banned, it's a completely fine weapon.

And people want to ban mg and iron bomber, but they don't even think about banning the winger? xD

The only thing i don't understand is if the spoon was this op and the best weapon in the game (cuz based on what people say in the thread thats what they think) then why are there 3 prem/invite players combined that use it? Also to me it kinda looks like its only the salty medic mains crying who don't have good movement and haven't got very good awareness

About the iron bomber i don't think it should be banned, it's a completely fine weapon.

And people want to ban mg and iron bomber, but they don't even think about banning the winger? xD
53
#53
20 Frags +

you just need good movement to dodge soldier going at 1100+ units per second

you just need good movement to dodge soldier going at 1100+ units per second
54
#54
24 Frags +

I mean there are a lot of broken weapons that are currently allowed, we just play with a bad whitelist imo. However the argument that the weapon isn't op because only a few people use it just isn't sound logic. When the cowmangler was unbanned only a few soldiers used it, and im pretty sure all the best soldiers in europe didn't use it (in matches) like 7 or svift players. A few prem players used it (me yllen ubrs feeling from s26, thats 4 out of 16), it was definitely a minority. The weapon was still just straight up broken, unlimited spam in a game all about spam sounds good to me.

You could make the same argument with the winger, if its so good why doesnt everyone use it, pretty sure a lot of NA scouts don't (of course winger is more used than mg, but you get the point). I still think a weapon that 1 shots almost every class in 6s is probably too good, even if there is only a handful of soldiers that use it.

I dont know what to think about iron bomber to be honest, im just so used to getting fucked by demos at this point i don't even realise when it happens. It would be nice to play with iron bomber banned and see if it makes the game more fun for everyone else (also the rollers are so probably op).

I mean there are a lot of broken weapons that are currently allowed, we just play with a bad whitelist imo. However the argument that the weapon isn't op because only a few people use it just isn't sound logic. When the cowmangler was unbanned only a few soldiers used it, and im pretty sure all the best soldiers in europe didn't use it (in matches) like 7 or svift players. A few prem players used it (me yllen ubrs feeling from s26, thats 4 out of 16), it was definitely a minority. The weapon was still just straight up broken, unlimited spam in a game all about spam sounds good to me.

You could make the same argument with the winger, if its so good why doesnt everyone use it, pretty sure a lot of NA scouts don't (of course winger is more used than mg, but you get the point). I still think a weapon that 1 shots almost every class in 6s is probably too good, even if there is only a handful of soldiers that use it.

I dont know what to think about iron bomber to be honest, im just so used to getting fucked by demos at this point i don't even realise when it happens. It would be nice to play with iron bomber banned and see if it makes the game more fun for everyone else (also the rollers are so probably op).
55
#55
11 Frags +

wow giving soldier a 195 damage instant kill weapon that makes it so medics and soldiers have almost have 0 input during a soldier bomb is DISLIKED by players? no, they're just salty guys. let's remove the importance of surfing and actually hitting rockets during bombs and instead roll a dice on if the med happens to be standing in a bad position or not lol

wow giving soldier a 195 damage instant kill weapon that makes it so medics and soldiers have almost have 0 input during a soldier bomb is DISLIKED by players? no, they're just salty guys. let's remove the importance of surfing and actually hitting rockets during bombs and instead roll a dice on if the med happens to be standing in a bad position or not lol
56
#56
9 Frags +

if we ban mg then ib should be banned too

if we ban mg then ib should be banned too
57
#57
2 Frags +

From +6 5 mins after posting to -8 30 mins after posting, hmm i see whats going on here.

From +6 5 mins after posting to -8 30 mins after posting, hmm i see whats going on here.
58
#58
-3 Frags +

I could be wrong but isn't mg really easy to counter with good awareness, good movement and a scout? Should we not reward skilled weapons and outplay potential? Isn't it a good thing if a good enough soldier can break a stalemate with a set off good jumps and a well timed spoon?

Edit: stuff like loch 'n load is pretty insane imo as well, it should only have 2 grenades to be fair.

I could be wrong but isn't mg really easy to counter with good awareness, good movement and a scout? Should we not reward skilled weapons and outplay potential? Isn't it a good thing if a good enough soldier can break a stalemate with a set off good jumps and a well timed spoon?

Edit: stuff like loch 'n load is pretty insane imo as well, it should only have 2 grenades to be fair.
59
#59
0 Frags +
Phantomthe med mains in this thread are fuming. at least in NA jay and soapy are the only players who make the spoon look good everyone else sucks with it it absolutely doesn't need to be banned. obv the thread is for europe and u guys can do what u want but i cannot believe how mad you guys are

phantom is no longer the greatest medic of all time.

also ban this stupid shit

[quote=Phantom]the med mains in this thread are fuming. at least in NA jay and soapy are the only players who make the spoon look good everyone else sucks with it it absolutely doesn't need to be banned. obv the thread is for europe and u guys can do what u want but i cannot believe how mad you guys are[/quote]

phantom is no longer the greatest medic of all time.

also ban this stupid shit
60
#60
20 Frags +
nubbiThe only thing i don't understand is if the spoon was this op and the best weapon in the game (cuz based on what people say in the thread thats what they think) then why are there 3 prem/invite players combined that use it?

Not everyone is skilled with the spoon, hence few people use it. However, the spoon does become OP with the few people who are good with it. It's about the user, not the weapon.

nubbiAlso to me it kinda looks like its only the salty medic mains crying who don't have good movement and haven't got very good awareness

In these clips, the medic was aware of the soldier and I don't think their movement was "bad".

https://www.twitch.tv/rglgg/clip/EnjoyableBadGiraffeSSSsss
https://www.twitch.tv/rglgg/clip/MoralTacitCougarJKanStyle-r97zAs0sWe73ZtA_
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_jsoJWL9x94&t=103s

A medic can juke/dodge/surf a soldier using rockets, while with the spoon, there's practically nothing anyone can do about it except pop or drop.

chiefdogI could be wrong but isn't mg really easy to counter with good awareness, good movement and a scout? Should we not reward skilled weapons and outplay potential? Isn't it a good thing if a good enough soldier can break a stalemate with a set off good jumps and a well timed spoon?

In stalemates, I think both teams should have almost equal chances of winning. The issue arises when the attacking team has a market gardener soldier. They have time to prepare and get a good jump in (for example, soapymesiter's clip), while the defending team will not have such a great opportunity if they counter sac (with the spoon) since the enemy is more prepared and expecting and also playing passive positions. Haven't you noticed how the market gardener almost always excels when you are attacking with point advantage? It does not favor both sides equally when breaking stalemates with the spoon.

The market gardener can achieve more than any launcher for less skill/aim. The few people who can use it terrorize other teams, and it is really hard to counter. That is why it is overpowered, ban the spoon.

[quote=nubbi]The only thing i don't understand is if the spoon was this op and the best weapon in the game (cuz based on what people say in the thread thats what they think) then why are there 3 prem/invite players combined that use it? [/quote]

Not everyone is skilled with the spoon, hence few people use it. However, the spoon does become OP with the few people who are good with it. It's about the user, not the weapon.

[quote=nubbi]Also to me it kinda looks like its only the salty medic mains crying who don't have good movement and haven't got very good awareness[/quote]

In these clips, the medic was aware of the soldier and I don't think their movement was "bad".

https://www.twitch.tv/rglgg/clip/EnjoyableBadGiraffeSSSsss
https://www.twitch.tv/rglgg/clip/MoralTacitCougarJKanStyle-r97zAs0sWe73ZtA_
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_jsoJWL9x94&t=103s

A medic can juke/dodge/surf a soldier using rockets, while with the spoon, there's practically nothing anyone can do about it except pop or drop.

[quote=chiefdog]I could be wrong but isn't mg really easy to counter with good awareness, good movement and a scout? Should we not reward skilled weapons and outplay potential? Isn't it a good thing if a good enough soldier can break a stalemate with a set off good jumps and a well timed spoon?
[/quote]

In stalemates, I think both teams should have almost equal chances of winning. The issue arises when the attacking team has a market gardener soldier. They have time to prepare and get a good jump in (for example, soapymesiter's clip), while the defending team will not have such a great opportunity if they counter sac (with the spoon) since the enemy is more prepared and expecting and also playing passive positions. Haven't you noticed how the market gardener almost always excels when you are attacking with point advantage? It does not favor both sides equally when breaking stalemates with the spoon.

The market gardener can achieve more than any launcher for less skill/aim. The few people who can use it terrorize other teams, and it is really hard to counter. That is why it is overpowered, ban the spoon.
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