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Stalemates
31
#31
17 Frags +

http://logs.tf/1620016
This game isnt stalematey what are you talking about

http://logs.tf/1620016
This game isnt stalematey what are you talking about
32
#32
tf2pickup.org
9 Frags +
albaCasters can make it intresting while watching but stalemates will still be boring from a players perspective. If there is too many stalemates not even casters can make it intresting in my opinion

Never played in prem, but for me stalemates are quite fun as well. You have to stay conscious and be ready to react promptly to any action that happens out of nowhere. Lowpander learnt it the hard way, when drackk managed to drop vani due to the flank not being watched.

[quote=alba]Casters can make it intresting while watching but stalemates will still be boring from a players perspective. If there is too many stalemates not even casters can make it intresting in my opinion[/quote]

Never played in prem, but for me stalemates are quite fun as well. You have to stay conscious and be ready to react promptly to any action that happens out of nowhere. Lowpander learnt it the hard way, when drackk managed to drop vani due to the flank not being watched.
33
#33
18 Frags +

https://clips.twitch.tv/RelievedDependableSowRlyTho

https://clips.twitch.tv/RelievedDependableSowRlyTho
34
#34
-2 Frags +
GazEither that, or healing that scales down with increasing uber percentage, so you can still have a lot of impact in post-uber team fights and mids but you are unable to slow down the game in stalemates because the crossbow would practically be useless while having uber.

This is a genius idea but valve won't implement because it is

A) Too complex for themselves to comprehend.
B) Far too complex for normal players to comprehend.

[quote=Gaz]
Either that, or healing that scales down with increasing uber percentage, so you can still have a lot of impact in post-uber team fights and mids but you are unable to slow down the game in stalemates because the crossbow would practically be useless while having uber.
[/quote]
This is a genius idea but valve won't implement because it is

A) Too complex for themselves to comprehend.
B) Far too complex for normal players to comprehend.
35
#35
4 Frags +
YeeHawso we cant fix one problem because there are other problems too? just because problem 2 is bigger, doesn't make problem 1 smaller

The OP's problems of a small audience and a lack of participation aren't going to be solved by making it slightly easier to push

[quote=YeeHaw]so we cant fix one problem because there are other problems too? just because problem 2 is bigger, doesn't make problem 1 smaller[/quote]
The OP's problems of a small audience and a lack of participation aren't going to be solved by making it slightly easier to push
36
#36
12 Frags +
SearchlightMake the map tilt depending on who holds which point, so you have the automatic high ground when the other team holds last

I will give whoever makes a working map like this many dollars

[quote=Searchlight]Make the map tilt depending on who holds which point, so you have the automatic high ground when the other team holds last[/quote]
I will give whoever makes a working map like this many dollars
37
#37
10 Frags +

Imo the best way for 6v6 to play is to have fights that are concluded relatively quickly and are separated by stalemates that are a few mins long at most. The game right now obviously has stalemates that are far too long, but also fights in higher level games often take a lot longer to conclude and aren't decisive when they do happen which I think is an issue too. Very chaotic games can be more entertaining to watch than stalematey games but if fighting is constantly going on this ruins the flow of the game.

Shorter round timers force the attacking team to commit more to their pushes as the timer ticks down. A lot of people worry that this will lead to turtling teams doing nothing and playing for the round reset more. While this is true it means failed pushes where a repush isn't possible (most of the attacking team gets out) lead to a round reset rather than another stalemate.

I'd also like to point out that although it doesn't do a huge amount to alleviate the problem, ESEA's ruleset does mitigate it a bit. This is mainly because of the increased map length and having a half time that allows people a reset. You see teams come back from being behind a lot more because of this.

Ultimately though I don't think that giving teams incentives to push is enough when 6 of the classes in the game are much better at stopping pushes than they are at making them, and 2 of the ones that aren't are sniper and spy. I don't think the game's going to get much quicker without valve doing anything about this.

Imo the best way for 6v6 to play is to have fights that are concluded relatively quickly and are separated by stalemates that are a few mins long at most. The game right now obviously has stalemates that are far too long, but also fights in higher level games often take a lot longer to conclude and aren't decisive when they do happen which I think is an issue too. Very chaotic games can be more entertaining to watch than stalematey games but if fighting is constantly going on this ruins the flow of the game.

Shorter round timers force the attacking team to commit more to their pushes as the timer ticks down. A lot of people worry that this will lead to turtling teams doing nothing and playing for the round reset more. While this is true it means failed pushes where a repush isn't possible (most of the attacking team gets out) lead to a round reset rather than another stalemate.

I'd also like to point out that although it doesn't do a huge amount to alleviate the problem, ESEA's ruleset does mitigate it a bit. This is mainly because of the increased map length and having a half time that allows people a reset. You see teams come back from being behind a lot more because of this.

Ultimately though I don't think that giving teams incentives to push is enough when 6 of the classes in the game are much better at stopping pushes than they are at making them, and 2 of the ones that aren't are sniper and spy. I don't think the game's going to get much quicker without valve doing anything about this.
38
#38
0 Frags +

Are the other gamemodes out of the question assuming their flaws could be fixed?

Are the other gamemodes out of the question assuming their flaws could be fixed?
39
#39
5 Frags +
ZestyShorter round timers force the attacking team to commit more to their pushes as the timer ticks down. A lot of people worry that this will lead to turtling teams doing nothing and playing for the round reset more. While this is true it means failed pushes where a repush isn't possible (most of the attacking team gets out) lead to a round reset rather than another stalemate.

The problem is that the shorter it is set the more linear it makes the game. If it's short enough to have an impact then it essentially reduces the game to win mid > push last with almost no prospect of variation from this formula. There is no real point playing 5cp in this case apart from the lack of maps for other modes, you've effectively reduced it to a weird version of koth.

[quote=Zesty]Shorter round timers force the attacking team to commit more to their pushes as the timer ticks down. A lot of people worry that this will lead to turtling teams doing nothing and playing for the round reset more. While this is true it means failed pushes where a repush isn't possible (most of the attacking team gets out) lead to a round reset rather than another stalemate.[/quote]
The problem is that the shorter it is set the more linear it makes the game. If it's short enough to have an impact then it essentially reduces the game to win mid > push last with almost no prospect of variation from this formula. There is no real point playing 5cp in this case apart from the lack of maps for other modes, you've effectively reduced it to a weird version of koth.
40
#40
0 Frags +

^That's probably the greatest thing you lose in this scenario (although attacking teams committing more could lead to more repushes). Honestly it might be worth what you gain from having shorter stalemates.

^That's probably the greatest thing you lose in this scenario (although attacking teams committing more could lead to more repushes). Honestly it might be worth what you gain from having shorter stalemates.
41
#41
1 Frags +
Zesty^That's probably the greatest thing you lose in this scenario (although attacking teams committing more could lead to more repushes). Honestly it might be worth what you gain from having shorter stalemates.

I wouldn't want to theory craft too much but it would probably lead to attackers waiting until no realistic push back can happen before going for a fully committed attack, and anything before then would probably just be opportunistic poking to try to manufacture an advantage, unless the game clock demanded it.

I really think koth or AD does this better, it seems like everyone who wants change wants to warp 5cp into an already existing game mode, and really it's the lack of good maps in other modes that's the bottleneck.

[quote=Zesty]^That's probably the greatest thing you lose in this scenario (although attacking teams committing more could lead to more repushes). Honestly it might be worth what you gain from having shorter stalemates.[/quote]
I wouldn't want to theory craft too much but it would probably lead to attackers waiting until no realistic push back can happen before going for a fully committed attack, and anything before then would probably just be opportunistic poking to try to manufacture an advantage, unless the game clock demanded it.

I really think koth or AD does this better, it seems like everyone who wants change wants to warp 5cp into an already existing game mode, and really it's the lack of good maps in other modes that's the bottleneck.
42
#42
4 Frags +

Speaking of Koth maps, have any of the maps that were featured on the New Maps Cup a few months ago improved further to be considered for a future season's mappool?

Speaking of Koth maps, have any of the maps that were featured on the [url=http://www.teamfortress.tv/39622/teamfortress-tv-new-map-cup-sponsored-by-marketplace-tf-announced]New Maps Cup[/url] a few months ago improved further to be considered for a future season's mappool?
43
#43
-8 Frags +
PumSpeaking of Koth maps, have any of the maps that were featured on the New Maps Cup a few months ago improved further to be considered for a future season's mappool?

Bagel was already good enough to replace a map back then and I hope it will replace badlands next season

[quote=Pum]Speaking of Koth maps, have any of the maps that were featured on the [url=http://www.teamfortress.tv/39622/teamfortress-tv-new-map-cup-sponsored-by-marketplace-tf-announced]New Maps Cup[/url] a few months ago improved further to be considered for a future season's mappool?[/quote]

Bagel was already good enough to replace a map back then and I hope it will replace badlands next season
44
#44
-3 Frags +

How about we just stop playing the maps that are really stalematy like badlands, granary and reckoner. People have been asking to get these maps replaced for a long time now. It's never as bad on the other maps aside from snake but snake is not as bad

How about we just stop playing the maps that are really stalematy like badlands, granary and reckoner. People have been asking to get these maps replaced for a long time now. It's never as bad on the other maps aside from snake but snake is not as bad
45
#45
8 Frags +

The problem isn't really the maps its the players wanting to force stalemates, each team can dry push every single point doesn't mean it'll work every single time though and because of that people slowed down the game to stalemates so they don't lose rounds in important games and so that playstyle is more effective because it has less negative impact on your team (aka you don't lose rounds nearly as often because you don't take risks).

You can change each map drastically but teams will find a way to slow down the game one way or another if its 5cp, other gamemodes aren't "viable" because people don't wanna scrim them, it's like viaduct, they scrim it for 1/2weeks then forget about it again for the most part.

I'm also not sure where this idea of stalemating being like a new meta thing came around either there were plenty of teams that would sit and stalemate in games for as long as they could when they were winning (mixup is probably 1 of the best examples of that) sure it's probably MORE stalematey than before but doesn't mean it didn't happen, and the strats back then are probably still viable so a good portion of stalemates comes down to neither team wanting to do anything to break the stalemate other than the low-risk sniper play before attempting something.

Stalemating at a lower level is easier to deal with too because the mechanical skill of the players is worse (positioning, aim, decision making) which also affects the higher level gameplay, but there is a reason it's considered the highest level.

The problem isn't really the maps its the players wanting to force stalemates, each team can dry push every single point doesn't mean it'll work every single time though and because of that people slowed down the game to stalemates so they don't lose rounds in important games and so that playstyle is more effective because it has less negative impact on your team (aka you don't lose rounds nearly as often because you don't take risks).

You can change each map drastically but teams will find a way to slow down the game one way or another if its 5cp, other gamemodes aren't "viable" because people don't wanna scrim them, it's like viaduct, they scrim it for 1/2weeks then forget about it again for the most part.

I'm also not sure where this idea of stalemating being like a new meta thing came around either there were plenty of teams that would sit and stalemate in games for as long as they could when they were winning (mixup is probably 1 of the best examples of that) sure it's probably MORE stalematey than before but doesn't mean it didn't happen, and the strats back then are probably still viable so a good portion of stalemates comes down to neither team wanting to do anything to break the stalemate other than the low-risk sniper play before attempting something.

Stalemating at a lower level is easier to deal with too because the mechanical skill of the players is worse (positioning, aim, decision making) which also affects the higher level gameplay, but there is a reason it's considered the highest level.
46
#46
0 Frags +

Unfortunately creating a map which doesn't appeal to stalemates is very tough. I think until we move to a different map pool that isn't majority 5cp we won't get anywhere.

Unfortunately creating a map which doesn't appeal to stalemates is very tough. I think until we move to a different map pool that isn't majority 5cp we won't get anywhere.
47
#47
23 Frags +
ViglHow about we just stop playing the maps that are really stalematy like badlands, granary and reckoner. People have been asking to get these maps replaced for a long time now. It's never as bad on the other maps aside from snake but snake is not as bad

yea wtf remove all the stalematey maps like badlands granary reckoner snake gully process ITS IMPOSSIBLE TO PUSH

Before valve balance theorycrafting thread #286 starts I just want to put it out there that Valve isn't going to do jackshit and the sooner you people stop depending on them the sooner this game's scene can move on and improve.

Most of these stalemates come from a teams lack of confidence in pushing or their willingness to wait out the timer. One of which can be solved with smart item bans and practice, and the other an inherent flaw of timelimit 5cp.

[quote=Vigl]How about we just stop playing the maps that are really stalematy like badlands, granary and reckoner. People have been asking to get these maps replaced for a long time now. It's never as bad on the other maps aside from snake but snake is not as bad[/quote]
yea wtf remove all the stalematey maps like badlands granary reckoner snake gully process ITS IMPOSSIBLE TO PUSH

Before valve balance theorycrafting thread #286 starts I just want to put it out there that Valve isn't going to do jackshit and the sooner you people stop depending on them the sooner this game's scene can move on and improve.

Most of these stalemates come from a teams lack of confidence in pushing or their willingness to wait out the timer. One of which can be solved with smart item bans and practice, and the other an inherent flaw of timelimit 5cp.
48
#48
10 Frags +

I mean badlands is just the worst it gets in terms of stalemates. Last is literally impossible to push out of until the other team makes some sort of catastrophic mistake, and then even when you do the spawn timers are so fast that most of the time the attacking team can just defend 2nd point again.
For badlands I think it would still just be worth taking a look at the new version released recently, and seeing if there are any more ways to improve it to make it less ridiculous on last.

I mean badlands is just the worst it gets in terms of stalemates. Last is literally impossible to push out of until the other team makes some sort of catastrophic mistake, and then even when you do the spawn timers are so fast that most of the time the attacking team can just defend 2nd point again.
For badlands I think it would still just be worth taking a look at the new version released recently, and seeing if there are any more ways to improve it to make it less ridiculous on last.
49
#49
4 Frags +

I'm a basement iron player so take this with a grain of salt, but most esea matches are fairly entertaining and the stalemates aren't usually longer than 3-4 minutes, and it seems that a lot of the stalemates that happen are in etf2l. Some people have suggested changes to the rule set, why not try that rule set that was supposed to happen at ESA? The on that was like two 20 minute halves and first to three or something? I don't know if this would fix it, but its at least attempting change.

I'm a basement iron player so take this with a grain of salt, but most esea matches are fairly entertaining and the stalemates aren't usually longer than 3-4 minutes, and it seems that a lot of the stalemates that happen are in etf2l. Some people have suggested changes to the rule set, why not try that rule set that was supposed to happen at ESA? The on that was like two 20 minute halves and first to three or something? I don't know if this would fix it, but its at least attempting change.
50
#50
22 Frags +
b4nnyYou could mitigate some of the pain of long stalemates by reducing the round timer. While it would produce more urgency to push on advantages, it simultaneously eases the ability to turtle so it's tricky. You'd definitely have more round resets, which means more midfights, which might be worth it compared to how things are now tbh. I would love for Valve to add that as an option so we could experiment with it. In my eyes, the only way to currently truly eliminate stalemates is to run KOTH maps only, though they are shallower tactically than 5CP unfortunately.

I'm on mobile right now so maybe I missed someone covering this but changing the max round time from 10 minutes to whatever else or making capture points give you different amounts of time is a really easy fix. I could go thru and decompile valve maps and fix them if people want to try playing with a 5 minute round timer, etc.

[quote=b4nny]You could mitigate some of the pain of long stalemates by reducing the round timer. While it would produce more urgency to push on advantages, it simultaneously eases the ability to turtle so it's tricky. You'd definitely have more round resets, which means more midfights, which might be worth it compared to how things are now tbh. I would love for Valve to add that as an option so we could experiment with it. In my eyes, the only way to currently truly eliminate stalemates is to run KOTH maps only, though they are shallower tactically than 5CP unfortunately.[/quote]

I'm on mobile right now so maybe I missed someone covering this but changing the max round time from 10 minutes to whatever else or making capture points give you different amounts of time is a really easy fix. I could go thru and decompile valve maps and fix them if people want to try playing with a 5 minute round timer, etc.
51
#51
12 Frags +
5unnyI'm a basement iron player so take this with a grain of salt, but most esea matches are fairly entertaining and the stalemates aren't usually longer than 3-4 minutes, and it seems that a lot of the stalemates that happen are in etf2l. Some people have suggested changes to the rule set, why not try that rule set that was supposed to happen at ESA? The on that was like two 20 minute halves and first to three or something? I don't know if this would fix it, but its at least attempting change.

i think it's more of a playstyle thing than a ruleset problem. imagine how much more stalemating there would be if the games were one hour long...

[quote=5unny]I'm a basement iron player so take this with a grain of salt, but most esea matches are fairly entertaining and the stalemates aren't usually longer than 3-4 minutes, and it seems that a lot of the stalemates that happen are in etf2l. Some people have suggested changes to the rule set, why not try that rule set that was supposed to happen at ESA? The on that was like two 20 minute halves and first to three or something? I don't know if this would fix it, but its at least attempting change.[/quote]
i think it's more of a playstyle thing than a ruleset problem. imagine how much more stalemating there would be if the games were one hour long...
52
#52
7 Frags +

some of valve's proposed balance changes to items seem built to try and stop stalemates. like you see an item like this

Mantreads
- The second least-used item in the game. The aerial stomp mini-game is difficult, and The Gunboats are superior in most scenarios.
- Changes:
- +75% push-force reduction now includes airblast
- Added: +200% air control when blast jumping

and there is no way that wasn't 100% designed for quick suicide bombs onto medics

some of valve's proposed balance changes to items seem built to try and stop stalemates. like you see an item like this

[quote][b]Mantreads[/b]
- The second least-used item in the game. The aerial stomp mini-game is difficult, and The Gunboats are superior in most scenarios.
- Changes:
- +75% push-force reduction now includes airblast
- Added: +200% air control when blast jumping[/quote]

and there is no way that wasn't 100% designed for quick suicide bombs onto medics
53
#53
-5 Frags +

nerf xbow
nerf scattergun knockback or make the spread larger
shorter round timer

nerf xbow
nerf scattergun knockback or make the spread larger
shorter round timer
54
#54
-1 Frags +

5 minute round timer would fix everything. Every time a stale mate starts you notice about 4 minutes in . If there was a 5 min timer that means after 4 mins of stalemating you are forced to push. vs 9 mins you can stale mate now. And if the team really feels like turtling its just another mid fight so who cares. The meta would be rounds resolving quicker but still able to stale mate if you need to. Also things like conceding mid , pub rush .

5 minute round timer would fix everything. Every time a stale mate starts you notice about 4 minutes in . If there was a 5 min timer that means after 4 mins of stalemating you are forced to push. vs 9 mins you can stale mate now. And if the team really feels like turtling its just another mid fight so who cares. The meta would be rounds resolving quicker but still able to stale mate if you need to. Also things like conceding mid , pub rush .
55
#55
9 Frags +
sendnerf xbow
nerf scattergun knockback or make the spread larger
shorter round timer

while that isn't the worst idea, scouts are one of the least impactful classes when it comes to defending, despite its ability to shut down players aggressing. demo (and also the ubercharge mechanic) is one big reason dry pushing is terrible on most maps, but i want to point out that i say most maps. maps that don't have a large area to dry push, such as grass/lower on snakewater (mid to 2nd), are honestly really bad maps in regard to the flow of the game. it's honestly way more effective than people think to do things like trading ubers and repushing an easier entrance to dry push, but most points on most maps don't allow this because of their terrible design. in that very specific snakewater example, it's not that easy to trade ubers without having a significantly worse uber (but still possible). having a significantly worse uber, however, wouldn't matter as much if the defending team's rotation wasn't as easy as a 1 second walk or jump. as much as people say it's the 5cp gamemode that is at fault (which obviously inherently is as a result of demos and ubers), there can still be maps that are designed to have a mix of well designed small chokes as well as large chokes that have an open area easy to take exciting team fights, while also having good rotation timings between each choke from each team's position.

edit: by open area/choke, i don't necessarily mean a plain flat area such as grass on snakewater 2nd. while it is a good part of the map and also works effectively as a part of the map to push, as a side suggestion, something more interesting with props could have more potential to bring exciting team fight--sort of like a new mid fight.

[quote=send]nerf xbow
[b]nerf scattergun knockback or make the spread larger[/b]
shorter round timer[/quote]

while that isn't the worst idea, scouts are one of the least impactful classes when it comes to [i]defending[/i], despite its ability to shut down players aggressing. demo (and also the ubercharge mechanic) is one big reason dry pushing is terrible on most maps, but i want to point out that i say most maps. maps that don't have a large area to dry push, such as grass/lower on snakewater (mid to 2nd), are honestly really bad maps in regard to the flow of the game. it's honestly way more effective than people think to do things like trading ubers and repushing an easier entrance to dry push, but most points on most maps don't allow this because of their terrible design. in that very specific snakewater example, it's not that easy to trade ubers without having a significantly worse uber (but still possible). having a significantly worse uber, however, wouldn't matter as much if the defending team's rotation wasn't as easy as a 1 second walk or jump. as much as people say it's the 5cp gamemode that is at fault (which obviously inherently is as a result of demos and ubers), there can still be maps that are designed to have a mix of well designed small chokes as well as large chokes that have an open area easy to take exciting team fights, while also having good rotation timings between each choke from each team's position.

edit: by open area/choke, i don't necessarily mean a plain flat area such as grass on snakewater 2nd. while it is a good part of the map and also works effectively as a part of the map to push, as a side suggestion, something more interesting with props could have more potential to bring exciting team fight--sort of like a new mid fight.
56
#56
6 Frags +

Stalemates have been an issue since 2007. I don't think they're going anywhere.

Stalemates have been an issue since 2007. I don't think they're going anywhere.
57
#57
0 Frags +

The worst stalemates seem to be the ones between teams holding mid and second because the team holding mid is in a comfy spot, the team holding 2nd doesn't want to take a risk and have to defend last, switching to sniper or spy isn't convenient, and there isn't even the exciting tension of being at a team's last point. Currently, all of the advantages that holding mid gives you are things that benefit you after your team loses the fight. Forward spawns are nice but all they really do is help even out the travel time between teams after you fail your push and besides that all you really get for holding mid is not being super close to losing. In order to fix this issue, holding mid should give the team that owns it some sort of advantage they can use to help their push to 2nd succeed even if they take an even fight in terms of uber and numbers. It doesn't have to be anything huge, just something to counteract the defending team's natural advantage.

The worst stalemates seem to be the ones between teams holding mid and second because the team holding mid is in a comfy spot, the team holding 2nd doesn't want to take a risk and have to defend last, switching to sniper or spy isn't convenient, and there isn't even the exciting tension of being at a team's last point. Currently, all of the advantages that holding mid gives you are things that benefit you after your team loses the fight. Forward spawns are nice but all they really do is help even out the travel time between teams after you fail your push and besides that all you really get for holding mid is not being super close to losing. In order to fix this issue, holding mid should give the team that owns it some sort of advantage they can use to help their push to 2nd succeed even if they take an even fight in terms of uber and numbers. It doesn't have to be anything huge, just something to counteract the defending team's natural advantage.
58
#58
12 Frags +

Going off of what Gubbins said in that clip why has nuze been the only person ever since epsilon/suave left to have attempted to recreate their playstyle?
It only took him a month or so to do and he's even offered to "teach" main callers how to do it. He's made it out to be so easy and yet no prem team has even attempted to do the same.
After i46 when all the eu teams got smashed because they weren't ready for the na aggressive play they adapted to counter/recreate it and in turn smashed hrg at i49.

Edit: Gubbins provides a lot of interesting insight on the lowpander v se7en game: https://www.twitch.tv/videos/159800638?t=32m52s

Going off of what Gubbins said in that clip why has nuze been the only person ever since epsilon/suave left to have attempted to recreate their playstyle?
It only took him a month or so to do and he's even offered to "teach" main callers how to do it. He's made it out to be so easy and yet no prem team has even attempted to do the same.
After i46 when all the eu teams got smashed because they weren't ready for the na aggressive play they adapted to counter/recreate it and in turn smashed hrg at i49.

Edit: Gubbins provides a lot of interesting insight on the lowpander v se7en game: https://www.twitch.tv/videos/159800638?t=32m52s
59
#59
-2 Frags +
CoYoTeAfter i46 when all the eu teams got smashed because they weren't ready for the na aggressive play they adapted to counter/recreate it and in turn smashed hrg at i49.

to be fair, hrg didn't really get smashed as they got 3rd (i think?) at i49, but the whole esea quick-fix lan definitely messed with their strats and playstyle since the quick-fix was already banned in etf2l (again, i think?) and stayed banned for i49

[quote=CoYoTe]After i46 when all the eu teams got smashed because they weren't ready for the na aggressive play they adapted to counter/recreate it and in turn smashed hrg at i49.[/quote]
to be fair, hrg didn't really get smashed as they got 3rd (i think?) at i49, but the whole esea quick-fix lan definitely messed with their strats and playstyle since the quick-fix was already banned in etf2l (again, i think?) and stayed banned for i49
60
#60
-1 Frags +

it wouldnt be tf2 without stalemates, thats what makes the fast pace tf2 more exciting

it wouldnt be tf2 without stalemates, thats what makes the fast pace tf2 more exciting
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