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Water in competitive maps
1
#1
0 Frags +

I get why freight and well aren't played and I'm fairly certain the water isn't the main reason (if it is a factor at all), but I don't see why actually talented map creators don't utilise water in their maps. IMHO it would be cool as it would give talented jumpers stuff to do if placed interestingly and adds different terrain to a map. The downsides are that it's annoying to traverse if it isn't shallow and most people are just straight out not used to it.

Discuss.

I get why freight and well aren't played and I'm fairly certain the water isn't the main reason (if it is a factor at all), but I don't see why actually talented map creators don't utilise water in their maps. IMHO it would be cool as it would give talented jumpers stuff to do if placed interestingly and adds different terrain to a map. The downsides are that it's annoying to traverse if it isn't shallow and most people are just straight out not used to it.

Discuss.
2
#2
22 Frags +

idk how to swim

idk how to swim
3
#3
54 Frags +

cause its aids af to fight under water and it gives people with certain dxlevels an advantage

cause its aids af to fight under water and it gives people with certain dxlevels an advantage
4
#4
41 Frags +

pyroshark new meta

pyroshark new meta
5
#5
-7 Frags +

maybe i just suck but it always seems like water fucks up rocket jumping for me

maybe i just suck but it always seems like water fucks up rocket jumping for me
6
#6
17 Frags +

water is too gimmicky in the source engine

water is too gimmicky in the source engine
7
#7
38 Frags +

i think it would be cool for some maps to mix in (shallow) water for extra long/fast soldier jumps. could be fun to chain it with pogos and rampslides.

i think it would be cool for some maps to mix in (shallow) water for extra long/fast soldier jumps. could be fun to chain it with pogos and rampslides.
8
#8
21 Frags +

I'm pretty sure one of the reasons is that it hurts framerate

I'm pretty sure one of the reasons is that it hurts framerate
9
#9
19 Frags +

I have always toyed with having a shallow pond somewhere on rollout on a map. It's not that easy to execute while being terribly balanced I don't think, however cool it may be.

I have always toyed with having a shallow pond somewhere on rollout on a map. It's not that easy to execute while being terribly balanced I don't think, however cool it may be.
10
#10
2 Frags +

I don't think it's a terribly bad idea. I'm experimenting with the concept on my koth map, the idea being that you could do some decent jumps via a sac wave. Generally I think small ponds have no negative effects

I don't think it's a terribly bad idea. I'm experimenting with the concept on my koth map, the idea being that you could do some decent jumps via a sac wave. Generally I think small ponds have no negative effects
11
#11
0 Frags +

Doesn't water behave really weird sometimes when trying to jump/ chain jump in it? Like sometimes it just cancels the jump? Happens in pubs at least.

Doesn't water behave really weird sometimes when trying to jump/ chain jump in it? Like sometimes it just cancels the jump? Happens in pubs at least.
12
#12
2 Frags +

if there's not too much water, it can be great, since it makes rocket jumps going higher or faster, and in this case I don't think it would hurt framerates or something that much

if there's not too much water, it can be great, since it makes rocket jumps going higher or faster, and in this case I don't think it would hurt framerates or something that much
13
#13
9 Frags +

A water jump can get you pretty far and it might be too powerful, but worth trying for sure.

A water jump can get you pretty far and it might be too powerful, but worth trying for sure.
14
#14
-3 Frags +

not an interesting aspect of the game and hurts frames a lot. shouldn't be put in any maps to be played in 6s.

not an interesting aspect of the game and hurts frames a lot. shouldn't be put in any maps to be played in 6s.
15
#15
-7 Frags +

IMHO?
in my horrible opinion?

IMHO?
in my horrible opinion?
16
#16
6 Frags +

It'd be interesting to see water being used to give attacking/defending teams an advantage in 5cp maps.

For instance, if there was water on a battlements, defending roamers coming out could jump farther and catch any retreating players, or the other way around. The map design would have to work around that to prevent too much power, but it'd give soldiers another cool bombing option.

It'd be interesting to see water being used to give attacking/defending teams an advantage in 5cp maps.

For instance, if there was water on a battlements, defending roamers coming out could jump farther and catch any retreating players, or the other way around. The map design would have to work around that to prevent too much power, but it'd give soldiers another cool bombing option.
17
#17
2 Frags +

this was tried in the very early versions of gullywash, where the entire under side of the last was underwater (hence being called water, while at the same time the small window on the floor that peaks into water used to be an air hole for players to get air from if an extended fight was going on in water)

as far as i know it was complete trash for any class that wasn't soldier, and considering how scout-centric the 6v6 meta is currently i highly doubt a map with any sort-of deep water or submerged areas would go over well

this was tried in the very early versions of gullywash, where the entire under side of the last was underwater (hence being called water, while at the same time the small window on the floor that peaks into water used to be an air hole for players to get air from if an extended fight was going on in water)

as far as i know it was complete trash for any class that wasn't soldier, and considering how scout-centric the 6v6 meta is currently i highly doubt a map with any sort-of deep water or submerged areas would go over well
18
#18
5 Frags +

Tbh I'm mostly with YeeHaw and Mould with having shallow pools of water to do mega leaps from. Extended and large amounts of water to do fast jumps at then continuing to go fast is the only other option that isnt complete shitaids.

Could people clarify the dxlevel and framerate issues? I play on a toaster @dx8 and on some maps i get missing texture water but it isnt consistent and i never experience frame drops cause of it.

Edit: also yes old gully was not good use of water anyway.

Tbh I'm mostly with YeeHaw and Mould with having shallow pools of water to do mega leaps from. Extended and large amounts of water to do fast jumps at then continuing to go fast is the only other option that isnt complete shitaids.

Could people clarify the dxlevel and framerate issues? I play on a toaster @dx8 and on some maps i get missing texture water but it isnt consistent and i never experience frame drops cause of it.

Edit: also yes old gully was not good use of water anyway.
19
#19
cp_sunshine, cp_cardinal
20 Frags +

One of the biggest problem with water in Source is that it negates all fall damage, even if it's only an inch deep. I imagine that was a reason for its removal from Process second, and a reason why it rarely finds decent spots in other maps. The longer jumping is interesting, but the complete lack of fall damage from even the highest of heights can lead to some off gameplay - especially if placed around areas that have >256u natural drops. It could be a unique mechanic, if it was in a spot which purely benefited from said use, but in general it just leads to annoyance more than anything.

addendum: height is a unique incentive for gameplay in tf2 and the 256-unit fall damage cutoff is essential for a good handful of game mechanics that wouldn't be possible otherwise. it's very powerful to have 256+ unit advantage over someone, fall damage is one of the game's natural ways to confront that. want no fall damage naturally? don't use 256+ unit drops. even if water isn't used around said drops, it still negates soldier/demoman fall damage from blast jumping - which, while not 100% bad in theory, can lead to unexpected consequences.

Deep (swimmable) water has no place in competitive TF2.

As far as I am aware cheap water does not impact framerates in TF2 at any significant level when used correctly by the mapper. Expensive water is something else entirely and should be used with caution in competitive maps (including in purely aesthetic detailing). Improper use of water in Source (especially through interactions with entities) can lead to framerate issues; but generally speaking, if you know what you're doing cheap water can be used to little harm - and expensive water isn't impossible to use responsibly.

One of the biggest problem with water in Source is that it negates all fall damage, even if it's only an inch deep. I imagine that was a reason for its removal from Process second, and a reason why it rarely finds decent spots in other maps. The longer jumping is interesting, but the complete lack of fall damage from even the highest of heights can lead to some off gameplay - especially if placed around areas that have >256u natural drops. It could be a unique mechanic, if it was in a spot which purely benefited from said use, but in general it just leads to annoyance more than anything.

addendum: height is a unique incentive for gameplay in tf2 and the 256-unit fall damage cutoff is essential for a good handful of game mechanics that wouldn't be possible otherwise. it's very powerful to have 256+ unit advantage over someone, fall damage is one of the game's natural ways to confront that. want no fall damage naturally? don't use 256+ unit drops. even if water isn't used around said drops, it still negates soldier/demoman fall damage from blast jumping - which, while not 100% bad in theory, can lead to unexpected consequences.

Deep (swimmable) water has [u]no[/u] place in competitive TF2.

As far as I am aware cheap water does not impact framerates in TF2 at any significant level when used correctly by the mapper. Expensive water is something else entirely and should be used with caution in competitive maps (including in purely aesthetic detailing). Improper use of water in Source (especially through interactions with entities) can lead to framerate issues; but generally speaking, if you know what you're doing cheap water can be used to little harm - and expensive water isn't impossible to use responsibly.
20
#20
2 Frags +
Phi

do you know what version of process had the water?

[quote=Phi][/quote]
do you know what version of process had the water?
21
#21
cp_sunshine, cp_cardinal
8 Frags +
sendPhido you know what version of process had the water?

I don't recall which was the last version before it was removed - it was present throughout the beta versions, I can confirm that at least b4 had water on second. Could have went on for more versions than that but I don't remember and it's not a good hour to go sifting through it all

[quote=send][quote=Phi][/quote]
do you know what version of process had the water?[/quote]

I don't recall which was the last version before it was removed - it was present throughout the beta versions, I can confirm that at least b4 had water on second. Could have went on for more versions than that but I don't remember and it's not a good hour to go sifting through it all
22
#22
5 Frags +
Phi

thanks

[quote=Phi][/quote]
thanks
23
#23
3 Frags +

One of the main problems with gully's water was that behind the point it wasn't a smooth transition from swimming water to walking water. At the best of times that meant when you came up onto the point it popped you up netting you -100 damage if you'd been called. At the worst of times it used to just not let you out and you'd just be bouncing up against the edge.

In all fairness to water, the water on freight was never one of the parts of the map that felt horrendous. The mid was always the best part for me. That's not to say that I think it adds much to a map but I think it might not be the devil of source.

One of the main problems with gully's water was that behind the point it wasn't a smooth transition from swimming water to walking water. At the best of times that meant when you came up onto the point it popped you up netting you -100 damage if you'd been called. At the worst of times it used to just not let you out and you'd just be bouncing up against the edge.

In all fairness to water, the water on freight was never one of the parts of the map that felt horrendous. The mid was always the best part for me. That's not to say that I think it adds much to a map but I think it might not be the devil of source.
24
#24
0 Frags +
Phiaddendum: height is a unique incentive for gameplay in tf2 and the 256-unit fall damage cutoff is essential for a good handful of game mechanics that wouldn't be possible otherwise. it's very powerful to have 256+ unit advantage over someone, fall damage is one of the game's natural ways to confront that. want no fall damage naturally? don't use 256+ unit drops. even if water isn't used around said drops, it still negates soldier/demoman fall damage from blast jumping - which, while not 100% bad in theory, can lead to unexpected consequences.

That could be less of a problem if the puddle was extremely small to the point that it needs very good air control to take no fall damage, or next to props that you'd have to strafe around. That could make for some pretty clutch saves.

[quote=Phi]addendum: height is a unique incentive for gameplay in tf2 and the 256-unit fall damage cutoff is essential for a good handful of game mechanics that wouldn't be possible otherwise. it's very powerful to have 256+ unit advantage over someone, fall damage is one of the game's natural ways to confront that. want no fall damage naturally? don't use 256+ unit drops. even if water isn't used around said drops, it still negates soldier/demoman fall damage from blast jumping - which, while not 100% bad in theory, can lead to unexpected consequences.[/quote]
That could be less of a problem if the puddle was extremely small to the point that it needs very good air control to take no fall damage, or next to props that you'd have to strafe around. That could make for some pretty clutch saves.
25
#25
0 Frags +
MouldI don't think it's a terribly bad idea. I'm experimenting with the concept on my koth map, the idea being that you could do some decent jumps via a sac wave. Generally I think small ponds have no negative effects

This idea is somewhat used in cp_hoto as well.

[quote=Mould]I don't think it's a terribly bad idea. I'm experimenting with the concept on my koth map, the idea being that you could do some decent jumps via a sac wave. Generally I think small ponds have no negative effects[/quote]

This idea is somewhat used in cp_hoto as well.
26
#26
3 Frags +

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nzpZov-VFLk

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nzpZov-VFLk[/youtube]
27
#27
0 Frags +

a megahealth in an exposed area, so player can taking risk diving down there?

edit: Quake maps have a lot of water, they usually put a Red Armor or Mega in there, or for a sneaky path (mostly on CTF)

a megahealth in an exposed area, so player can taking risk diving down there?

edit: Quake maps have a lot of water, they usually put a Red Armor or Mega in there, or for a sneaky path (mostly on CTF)
28
#28
0 Frags +
Messing_Arounda megahealth in an exposed area, so player can taking risk diving down there?

edit: Quake maps have a lot of water, they usually put a Red Armor or Mega in there, or for a sneaky path (mostly on CTF)

I think that's the case in dm_whiskas, health underwater has a risks/reward factor

[quote=Messing_Around]a megahealth in an exposed area, so player can taking risk diving down there?

edit: Quake maps have a lot of water, they usually put a Red Armor or Mega in there, or for a sneaky path (mostly on CTF)[/quote]

I think that's the case in dm_whiskas, health underwater has a risks/reward factor
29
#29
-2 Frags +

I splash on your bitch with the water

I splash on your bitch with the water
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