mge's not about winning you spud, that's the entire reason why this idea is fucking stupid

That isn't what I'm proposing. Class picks would be left up to the players. Hell, the only forced change between rounds would be maps- class selection, or lack therof, would be up to the winner of the coinflip (in the first round) or loser of the first round (in the second round).

What I'm doing is leaving open the opportunity for a disadvantaged player to force a ditto that would allow them a fighting chance, not pushing Prolander or some shit, which I think is a disaster. If they think Pyro can give them that advantage, I say let them do it- if they don't, I don't care.

See, this is why people don't like us. There's plenty of skilled Pyro mains outside of the niche that 6v6 forces them into. There's so much more that goes into being skilled at TF2 than using less than half of its classes.

These scenarios do sound silly, I'll give you that much, but for what reason should the opportunity for them be taken away? These 1v1s may be slower or flow differently, but they're still 1v1s. Also, no Pyro would approach a 1v1 without using airblast/flame particle damage to their advantage at some point in the proceedings- for instance, to juggle the enemy into shotgun/flare combos.

I don't think a smart person would do something like that with money on the line. If they do, it's their right, but the whole point of the system is to give people a fighting chance, stop spectators from watching the exact same 1v1 on the exact same map for 20 minutes, and to keep things fast-paced and interesting while still requiring some strategy around counter-picking classes and maps depending on the skill of the other player.

Understand, the idea of this tournament isn't just to appeal to TFTV, the seasoned 6s players. It needs to appeal to the TF2 audience at large, and spectating first-to-20, Scout/Soldier-only MGE accomplishes neither my goal to appeal to that audience or my goal to show people just how much of a spectacle TF2's 1-on-1s are capable of being.

Lax class bans and the class-picking system mean people who main non-generalist classes can still have their chance against people who only play one or two of the generalist classes.

Shorter rounds and forced arena changes between rounds means that nobody's going to be stuck watching a foregone conclusion MGE, or one that drags on for too long without a change of scenery or strategy.

With this system, yes, there's room for silly gimmicks, but TF2 itself is a game that encourages those gimmicks. Counterplay is the name of the game.

Round 1's a Scout ditto that you can't win because that's not your best class? Great, force a Demoman ditto for Round 2 or go ahead and make classes free-choice if you're confident in that. It gives a chance to even the odds, a chance to make a comeback. Ultimately, the better, more-rounded player will still win, but isn't it way more interesting if the game's outcome isn't transparent from the moment one of the players crosses the threshold of ten kills?

Raw, stock MGE, which is what most of you want to stick to, is not fun to watch. It never will be. To be frank, it's dull and repetitive. The only value MGE has at the moment is to practice raw aim to improve your individual skill as a player, but as far as entertainment value goes, or developing strategy or game sense, it falls dreadfully short.

The fact is, having shorter rounds maintains the fast pace people expect from an eSport. Having counter-picking classes and maps adds in the complexity and strategy that people expect from an eSport, and which is currently absent from the vast majority of the MGE scene.

Open your mind a little. Can you really not see the potential of an MGE tournament that requires more skill and strategy than just raw aim? The better player will still win in the end. In fact, chances are the winners will ultimately be Scout/Soldier mains, who have both raw DM potential and know how to strategize around counterplay and counterpicking.

I'm not proposing something that rips out the soul of MGE, or spits in the face of 6s. I'm proposing something that makes MGE worth watching, that adds variety to the playing and viewing experience, and encourages more well-rounded players beyond runny-shootman and rocketdude. Is that really not something you'd be willing to play for a chance at some extra money?

http://i.imgur.com/rsCStgW.gif

I would appreciate an actual argument with my points.

posting a reaction gif doesn't contribute to the discussion or actually counter anything I've said.

like, if my idea is shit, by all means, argue. make me understand your point of view, show me where past experimentation like this has failed, explain to me why stock MGE is a superior solution for spectating and competing than this is. make your goddamn case.

Pyro, heavy, engie, spy, and medic MGE are all fucking dumb. DM wise all of those classes are far, far easier than scout, soldier and demo, it's not even sort of close. All this does is make good players need to put up with retards trying to outgay them and forcing a round of heavy v heavy.

Seriously go play an engie v engie game and tell me it's 1/0th as difficult as scout v scout. No one wants to watch that, it's both less interesting to watch and requires less skill to play.

If you really can't see that I truly have no idea what I could possibly say to you.

But why are they skilled? Because they position well and know when/where to spycheck. Those elements do not exist in mge. Put clockwork on pyro with a shotgun and nothing else against any of the pyro players you're talking about and it's a guaranteed body bag. To further beat that horse dead, as someone who used to mge a lot, the best pyros I MGE'd against were never pyro mains.

If someone wants to play pyro, or sniper: power to them. Forcing the other player to play pyro, though, is hardly fun.

With this inclusionist mindset, why then have you banned heavy and sentry guns? Because it's cheesey? But pyro somehow isn't?

What about a sentryless engie vs engie battle involves any form of strategy beyond raw aim? It's dumbed down scout v scout - more forgiving to players that have bad aim because of the slower movespeed and larger hitboxes. It's still all aim, it's even more "all aim" than scout v scout or soldier v soldier. There isn't even any room for other tactics at all. Sniper vs Sniper is also overwhelmingly aim dominant, with the only real tactic being baitscopes.

Rocket jumping alone is more complex/deep than anything pyro/sniper/medic/engie matchups can present. I'm not anti-non-sixes classes by any means, but it's a straight fact.

Again, power to you. Host your tourney, but don't be surprised if you fail to convince people to like your format. It's not because we're being close-minded, or elitists. We didn't just read some brochure that said non-sixes classes are shit/gimmicky. We think this way because we've played the game... a lot.

First of all,

So Heavy v Heavy wouldn't happen, and neither would any sentry-bullshit with Engineers.

Engie minus sentries is slow Scout, granted, so I could see the merit behind removing that as well. Medic's sryinge gun actually has quite high DPS potential in the hands of people who know how to use it, though I don't see many people forcing a Medic ditto unless they have mind-blowing skills with the wrong Medic primary.

That just leaves Pyro and Spy. Pyro's skillset involves doing airblast-combos and reflecting, which can lead to either a slightly-silly ditto or, in the right hands, a sharp response to Soldiers and Demomen as a counterpick.

I feel like it'd be smart to ban the Spy watches in general, but Spy revolver duels aren't bad, especially when choosing between using Ambassador or Revolver for the engagement. Interesting things happen with knives, too.

Obviously a Scout duel is faster, but the Revolvers require a bit more precision to be useful, and many Spy duels are done in a matter of seconds, since neither can double-jump shit around the engagement or get chip damage. Either you were accurate enough to hit the shot, or you get nothing.

Well, for the sake of arguing, say I agree with you about restricting all non-6s classes. What the short rounds and map/class counter-picking? Is the entire format a problem, or just allowing room for class selection gimmicks?

I've played this game a lot, too. I don't have the crazy hour count as some of you do, but I do have enough passion in the scene and the game to try and host a tourney that tries to make MGE watchable and palatable to the wider TF2 audience, not just us.

Honestly, I still fail to see the harm in refusing to play a tourney on the off chance you may be forced to play Pyro for a single round, after which you can thrash them anyways if you're actually the better player. Add that plus a prize pool, and depending on how many people sign up, you'lll deal with a gimmick or two in exchange for a cash prize. Is that really the worst idea? Is TFTV really this against stepping out of their comfort zone?

http://steamcommunity.com/id/contradicktory/stats/TF2

This is all starting to make sense...

Also, this isn't about stepping 'out of my comfort zone'. If my choices are pay $5 to have hl mains force me to play a round on some retard class for a few matches or not play a tournament with bad rules and eat burritos I'll pick the burritos every time

ahve u sver ofha in a noodle farm with tenn baerds

sick ad hom, dude

also, I've reset my stats like twice. but whatever.

what does it matter if you still win?

also, you didn't respond to this:

If you have such a boner for counterpicking strats, go play overwatch. It's MGE. There's nothing strategic about mge. It's raw aim and movement. That's why people like it.

but that game is garbage and not at all what I'm proposing with a slightly-more-strategic version of MGE

I've only read about half of your essays but it seems to me that counterpicking strats are right up your alley. It's not like you play tf2 because of its dm mechanics because otherwise you wouldn't be a SPY main.

I play Spy because its stealth mechanics interest me greatly, but I spend a lot more time recently playing Soldier or Demoman, since Spy can't carry for shit and I actually do enjoy the DM, rocketjumping and positioning side of things.

Why the fuck else would I have any interest in running an MGE tournament? Do you think I go to MGE/DM servers playing my fucking main?

Of course, a look at my (reset multiple times) hourcount will tell you all you need to know about me as a player, from my skill, to what classes I enjoy, to what I want out of the scene (6s is objectively the best format for spectating! I want the TF Team to embrace it just as much as you do!). Ad hom and surface-level observations absolutely give you enough information to speak as if you've actually played with me, which you haven't. :')

Stop taking everything so personally. It's just hard to take you seriously when you're trying to force spy, engie, and pyro dittos in an mge tournament when you dont even know what seeding is.

Then don't get personal. See how that works?

I'm not trying to force anything, I just want to leave the option open in case people want to do that for some reason.

My base idea for the format is really just short rounds, forced map switch between rounds, and people counter-picking maps/classes to make MGE more interesting than what it currently is. That is still doable if I decide to lock it down to Scout, Soldier and Demoman (though imo allowing Pyro, esp with the upcoming Pyro update, would still be a smart move, if only to have proper counters for the projectile classes available).

However, despite my repeated insistencies, nobody is actually talking about the core and whether or not it'd be good for a tourney/better for spectating, which I believe it would be. I am willing to back down on allowed classes, but making a quicker, more viewable MGE is the core of the idea here.

Why are you always so salty on literally every thread you post on

I didn't know you took offense to me calling you a spy main when it says exactly that on your steam profile.

All things aside, people have no problems with pyro etc being allowed. Forcing dittos is what makes no sense, no matter how you try to spin it.

lol i would win please host this

Restrict it to soldier, demo and scout and you instantly have a really good tournament, reason for this is being the quality will also increase by alot, nobody wnats to play pyros, heavies, engies, w/e

also since its just mge idk if paying the $5 is really worth it, but if it goes to the prizepot then I dont see too much of an issue

also i would like to play as demo

You insinuated because I main Spy that I don't care about the mechanical depth and DM capabilities of other classes in this game, which simply isn't true. You jumped to hella assumptions based on only surface-level knowledge, which yeah I'm gonna take offense to.

Hell, Demo is probably my second-favorite class, just because of how awesome it feels to hit pipes. I'm not particularly good at Demoman yet (not comp-ready, at any rate), but I still play it a lot.

idk that's like half the comments in this thread lol

I mean, most people I know prefer dittos in MGE for a straightforward measure of who has the better raw aim as that particular class. Adding counter-picking and stuff is meant to add a bit more depth and strategy than just solly v solly on spire for 20 minutes.

maybe

I'll wait for some more people to sound off here on TF.TV, then I'll see what people on r/tf2 think about class restrictions and whatnot (remember: I'm trying to reach a wider audience than JUST the pre-existing 6s scene here.).

I might just concede to only Solly/Demo/Scout, but I'm still strongly considering Pyro (at LEAST in free-choice games) so we have at least sort of half the classes in on the action. I want to appeal to as many people as possible and allow potential for unexpected upsets.

I might lower the entry fee, but the fees would go like this:

First $50 (10 entrants at $5/each): covering my initial investment of $50 into the prize pot.
This tourney won't be run for profit, at least not on my end, so the rest of the cash would go to getting the servers up for this and hiring folks (if necessary) to cast the finals brackets, as well as increasing the prize pool to be spread among the top 3 winners. Unless it gets truly massive I can do all writing/organizing myself.

If enough people show interest in actually signing up, I'll look around for sponsors/trusted third parties to manage the entry fees/money end of things, since I don't want that kind of stuff hanging over my head.

It can work but still, its not worth it in some aspects, especially when you have to go against a child like this;

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/aCDxAlxTOSQ/maxresdefault.jpg

who literally plays TF2 for 10+ hours non stop.

Think you're probably aiming a bit high here. The depth of MGE is severely cut down because of it's training mod background, 1v1 high skill is Quake in a custom made arena and many weapons and items that allows lots of deep strategy. Your suggestions don't feel like they'd bridge the gap, just make it sort of gimmicky, although you're right that it probably needs something extra. Niche classes like Pyro would produce really derpy matches though, not sure I'd consider that good viewing.

I don't think you know how to use mge correctly

.

Man, this thread turned to shit.

Welp, I think I've gotten about as much feedback as I'm going to get here. I'll run the feedback post by the boys over at r/tf2 now. If I come back here with an announcement post, it will probably look something like this:

Entry Fee and Prize Money

• Entry fee - $5 USD per person. Depending on amount of entrants, money will go to covering baseline costs (my initial prize pool + increasing the size of the prize pool + server rentals + etc). I'd be interested in working with a third party to manage this end of things, since I'm no business owner and have no intent of profiting off of this tourney. The more people who enter, the bigger the prize pool will be- but at this rate, I would need roughly 10 people to enter to break even on the prize pool alone. If we get a lot of entrants or donations/sponsors, I can probably afford to lower the entry fee significantly.
  
• Prize money - I'll put down $50 to start. 50% of the prize pool will go to the first place winner, 30% will go to the second place winner, and 20% will go the third place winner. The more people who enter, the larger the prize pool will be.

Game Progression

• Round 1 - A coinflip starts the proceedings. Winning player chooses the class (ditto or free-choice) and the loser chooses the map. First to 10 kills wins.
  
• Round 2 - No coinflip. Loser of round 1 chooses the class (ditto or free-choice) and the winner chooses the map (has to be different from previous). First to 10 kills wins.
  
• Tiebreaker - Free-choice class. Random map. First to 10 kills wins.

Rules/Restrictions

• Classes - Scout, Soldier, Demoman and Sniper are allowed in dittos and free-choice rounds. Pyro is allowed, but only in free-choice rounds, to prevent slow/awkward ditto games.
  
• Maps - Maps are a forced change between rounds. You will have to pick a different map for every round. This is to encourage variety for viewers and players alike.
  
• Timer - Round 1 and 2 are allowed to run for 5 minutes, while round 3 will run for 3. Whoever has more kills at the end of the round wins if the time limit is reached. This is intended to discourage hiding or camping.
  
• Weapon Bans - Darwin's Danger Shield, status effect weapons (Mad Milk, Fan of War, Boston Basher) and any other weapons determined to encourage camping/prolong the game/negatively impact balance will also be banned. This is a 1v1 tournament, not a cheese fest.

Your rules are a perversion of the true path of my gaming edge!

Now you've pushed me over the edge!

and there's the tourney name

thanks jake

What are you going to be doing about counterjumping and passive stratting?