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Coaching plugin and its implementation in leagues
1
#1
0 Frags +

hey there,
This thread is directed to tf2 leagues and its playerbase.
I think we all heard about this plugin, that kaidus used it with his team at LAN, but i can summarize it :
Basically, a guy who's not included in the roster, can call to his team stuffs to do through his players pov.
I'm asking if this sort of plugins could be used during officials matches.
It is, for me, a role i'd love to do, more than a standart player, and it would se healty for the game level itself, through creativity, focus, strategy...
free to discuss

hey there,
This thread is directed to tf2 leagues and its playerbase.
I think we all heard about this plugin, that kaidus used it with his team at LAN, but i can summarize it :
Basically, a guy who's not included in the roster, can call to his team stuffs to do through his players pov.
I'm asking if this sort of plugins could be used during officials matches.
It is, for me, a role i'd love to do, more than a standart player, and it would se healty for the game level itself, through creativity, focus, strategy...
free to discuss
2
#2
14 Frags +

the main arguable problems with it are that it takes required skill away from the players actually playing the game because you just have a guy in spec calling for them, and probably the more objectively bad issue which is having to send 7 players to lan rather than 6.

the main arguable problems with it are that it takes required skill away from the players actually playing the game because you just have a guy in spec calling for them, and probably the more objectively bad issue which is having to send 7 players to lan rather than 6.
3
#3
15 Frags +

dont think anyone playing tf2 wants to be a coach because you dont have an actual payback for your efforts like a salary in other games -> most people would rather play the game

dont think anyone playing tf2 wants to be a coach because you dont have an actual payback for your efforts like a salary in other games -> most people would rather play the game
4
#4
1 Frags +

considering i already basically do nothing but watch other people play, i'd love this
implementation into league play is though tho for reason already stated but using a plugin like this even just for scrims so the other team doesnt have to hope the guy in spec doesnt abuse freecam all the time would be nice and having access to it only in practice but not during officials would prevent a team from entirely relying on the 7th man for calls and instead uses the tool to learn with the 7th guy to do it themselves

considering i already basically do nothing but watch other people play, i'd love this
implementation into league play is though tho for reason already stated but using a plugin like this even just for scrims so the other team doesnt have to hope the guy in spec doesnt abuse freecam all the time would be nice and having access to it only in practice but not during officials would prevent a team from entirely relying on the 7th man for calls and instead uses the tool to learn with the 7th guy to do it themselves
5
#5
0 Frags +

If it's actually allowed in a league this thing would have much higher impact at lower levels, and it would become almost mandatory to get a coach to compete.

Add this to how difficult it can be to fill an "undesirable" role when looking for players, like picking up a medic, or worse, an engineer in highlander. With coach you've got a new, more undesirable slot to fill there, one that's not got the same transferrable skills so its not like they could always flex to something else if a roster shakeup happened etc.

Don't get me wrong coaching sounds fun, but is the gain worth it?

If it's actually allowed in a league this thing would have much higher impact at lower levels, and it would become almost mandatory to get a coach to compete.

Add this to how difficult it can be to fill an "undesirable" role when looking for players, like picking up a medic, or worse, an engineer in highlander. With coach you've got a new, more undesirable slot to fill there, one that's not got the same transferrable skills so its not like they could always flex to something else if a roster shakeup happened etc.

Don't get me wrong coaching sounds fun, but is the gain worth it?
6
#6
-1 Frags +

I would love to see coaching implementation. It already exists in cs:go on esea, and has been mildly successful.

I would love to see coaching implementation. It already exists in cs:go on esea, and has been mildly successful.
7
#7
whitelist.tf
4 Frags +

Coaching in CSGO is 'play calling' before/after rounds, there is no coach in spectate freecamming while also maincalling, which is imo how it should be for TF2. A coach can spectate it's own team and call how to approach the next mid, when to call a time-out etc. but no mid-round shot/play calling should be allowed (at least on LAN this can be enforced).

Coaching in CSGO is 'play calling' before/after rounds, there is no coach [i]in spectate freecamming[/i] while also maincalling, which is imo how it should be for TF2. A coach can spectate it's own team and call how to approach the next mid, when to call a time-out etc. but no mid-round shot/play calling should be allowed (at least on LAN this can be enforced).
8
#8
3 Frags +
WiethoofdCoaching in CSGO is 'play calling' before/after rounds, there is no coach in spectate freecamming while also maincalling, which is imo how it should be for TF2. A coach can spectate it's own team and call how to approach the next mid, when to call a time-out etc. but no mid-round shot/play calling should be allowed (at least on LAN this can be enforced).

Pretty sure this can be enforced online using the plugin being discussed in this thread.

It'd probably be cool/useful for helping lower level teams improve during scrims but it shouldn't be used for matches/officials for all of the obvious reasons.

[quote=Wiethoofd]Coaching in CSGO is 'play calling' before/after rounds, there is no coach [i]in spectate freecamming[/i] while also maincalling, which is imo how it should be for TF2. A coach can spectate it's own team and call how to approach the next mid, when to call a time-out etc. but no mid-round shot/play calling should be allowed (at least on LAN this can be enforced).[/quote]

Pretty sure this can be enforced online using the plugin being discussed in this thread.

It'd probably be cool/useful for helping lower level teams improve during scrims but it shouldn't be used for matches/officials for all of the obvious reasons.
9
#9
0 Frags +
JojoWiethoofdCoaching in CSGO is 'play calling' before/after rounds, there is no coach in spectate freecamming while also maincalling, which is imo how it should be for TF2. A coach can spectate it's own team and call how to approach the next mid, when to call a time-out etc. but no mid-round shot/play calling should be allowed (at least on LAN this can be enforced).
Pretty sure this can be enforced online using the plugin being discussed in this thread.

Not really, you can just stream your game either in discord or on a private twitch stream to the coach with a really small delay and they can still see everything mid round regardless of the plugin.

[quote=Jojo][quote=Wiethoofd]Coaching in CSGO is 'play calling' before/after rounds, there is no coach [i]in spectate freecamming[/i] while also maincalling, which is imo how it should be for TF2. A coach can spectate it's own team and call how to approach the next mid, when to call a time-out etc. but no mid-round shot/play calling should be allowed (at least on LAN this can be enforced).[/quote]

Pretty sure this can be enforced online using the plugin being discussed in this thread.[/quote]

Not really, you can just stream your game either in discord or on a private twitch stream to the coach with a really small delay and they can still see everything mid round regardless of the plugin.
10
#10
16 Frags +

Coaching shouldn't be allowed. It's for tiny brain players that need someone intelligent to micromanage them because they're 5 iq dm bots and they can't communicate with their teammates.

Coaching shouldn't be allowed. It's for tiny brain players that need someone intelligent to micromanage them because they're 5 iq dm bots and they can't communicate with their teammates.
11
#11
-3 Frags +

@ballzy well, filling this role for certains teams would be very hard, but it would give the opportunity for teams that are really trying to get better at the gamee to improve really fast, that's what matters the most.
The idea behind it, is also that you can do the role unofficially at LAN, as Wiethoofd said, so seeing this implementation online, can be useful for a lot of teams, also because it's online where you're spending the most time of your practice.

@mecha as a coach you can't really call for your teammates because it's not freecam, it's about pov, so you get a general idea of what's happening,it's more about giving them ideas about how to act in a certain situation, what are the plays baiscally. and doing scrimms that way would make those "5 iq dm bots" think about what the coach tell them over and over to do, and then learn faster acquiring gamesense reflexes like "Counter-sac" "positions" "check offclass"...

@ballzy well, filling this role for certains teams would be very hard, but it would give the opportunity for teams that are really trying to get better at the gamee to improve really fast, that's what matters the most.
The idea behind it, is also that you can do the role unofficially at LAN, as Wiethoofd said, so seeing this implementation online, can be useful for a lot of teams, also because it's online where you're spending the most time of your practice.

@mecha as a coach you can't really call for your teammates because it's not freecam, it's about pov, so you get a general idea of what's happening,it's more about giving them ideas about how to act in a certain situation, what are the plays baiscally. and doing scrimms that way would make those "5 iq dm bots" think about what the coach tell them over and over to do, and then learn faster acquiring gamesense reflexes like "Counter-sac" "positions" "check offclass"...
12
#12
2 Frags +

I dont think players would learn gamesense faster if they constantly relied on somebody else thinking for them

I dont think players would learn gamesense faster if they constantly relied on somebody else thinking for them
13
#13
-4 Frags +

It could be allowed and be harmless.
First, one maincaller, even an omniscient one, cant talk enough to micromanage six players.
Second, one trait of bad players is they're bad listeners (not talking about newbies learning), so no matter how many calls you make, or how many times you tell them their mistakes, if they don't want to improve or listen to you, they won't, so it's not going to change much for those teams.
Therefore it should be tolerated, but it's not the league's business to enforce match servers to run the plugin, and it shouldn't be an offence to deny a team a spec plugin server for a match.

It could be allowed and be harmless.
First, one maincaller, even an omniscient one, cant talk enough to micromanage six players.
Second, one trait of bad players is they're bad listeners (not talking about newbies learning), so no matter how many calls you make, or how many times you tell them their mistakes, if they don't want to improve or listen to you, they won't, so it's not going to change much for those teams.
Therefore it should be tolerated, but it's not the league's business to enforce match servers to run the plugin, and it shouldn't be an offence to deny a team a spec plugin server for a match.
14
#14
7 Frags +

wasnt a fan sitting through i58 with that coach plugin and certainly not a fan now, its not hard to learn how to maincall

wasnt a fan sitting through i58 with that coach plugin and certainly not a fan now, its not hard to learn how to maincall
15
#15
-3 Frags +
oyeaI dont think players would learn gamesense faster if they constantly relied on somebody else thinking for them

they would neither learn better with a bad maincaller, and from my experience i've always learnt something from experienced maincallers, like mistakes i should never make, positions, game reading...

And just to make it clear, i'm not talking about a mandatory rule to have a 7th player, just giving the option to have one

[quote=oyea]I dont think players would learn gamesense faster if they constantly relied on somebody else thinking for them[/quote]
they would neither learn better with a bad maincaller, and from my experience i've always learnt something from experienced maincallers, like mistakes i should never make, positions, game reading...

And just to make it clear, i'm not talking about a mandatory rule to have a 7th player, just giving the option to have one
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