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Are mirrored maps fair for both teams?
1
#1
0 Frags +

Here is a diagram made by Anguish to show mirrored maps vs symmetrical:

https://i.imgur.com/hellOfo.png

https://www.strawpoll.me/15948999

In the middle of a hot debate, primarily about product being competitively viable. The two sides are:

Yes, it's a fair map because rocket jumping/spam angles are player preferences, which makes it a fault in the players skill that red vs blue side makes them play differently. The differences between the two sides are also negligible in terms of affecting player ability.

No, it's not a fair map as two players of equal skill can do different things based on the side of the map they play on (red vs blue), and any difference in a competitive setting that affects red team vs blue team is significant.

Share thoughts, answer strawpoll, downfrag me, whatever floats your boat

Interesting developments:

- Negligible differences between the two sides are unimportant when it comes to competitive viability.

- Any difference between sides is significant in a competitive setting. Both teams if equal skill level should have a 50% chance of winning the game, however any differences between sides may offset this, making the map not competitively viable.

Here is a diagram made by Anguish to show mirrored maps vs symmetrical:

[url=https://i.imgur.com/hellOfo.png]https://i.imgur.com/hellOfo.png[/url]

[url=https://www.strawpoll.me/15948999]https://www.strawpoll.me/15948999[/url]

In the middle of a hot debate, primarily about product being competitively viable. The two sides are:

Yes, it's a fair map because rocket jumping/spam angles are player preferences, which makes it a fault in the players skill that red vs blue side makes them play differently. The differences between the two sides are also negligible in terms of affecting player ability.

No, it's not a fair map as two players of equal skill can do different things based on the side of the map they play on (red vs blue), and any difference in a competitive setting that affects red team vs blue team is significant.

Share thoughts, answer strawpoll, downfrag me, whatever floats your boat

Interesting developments:

- Negligible differences between the two sides are unimportant when it comes to competitive viability.

- Any difference between sides is significant in a competitive setting. Both teams if equal skill level should have a 50% chance of winning the game, however any differences between sides may offset this, making the map not competitively viable.
2
#2
33 Frags +

If the developers weren't retarded and projectiles came out of your crosshair like in every other game this thread wouldn't need to exist. They should add an option for centered projectiles because there is one for left handed projectiles.

If the developers weren't retarded and projectiles came out of your crosshair like in every other game this thread wouldn't need to exist. They should add an option for centered projectiles because there is one for left handed projectiles.
3
#3
8 Frags +

DOUGHY!

Show Content
shut ur mouth
DOUGHY!
[spoiler]shut ur mouth[/spoiler]
4
#4
8 Frags +

The difference is probably negligible.

However I'd be very interested what the win rates for red/blu are when looking at a massive sample size.

The difference is probably negligible.

However I'd be very interested what the win rates for red/blu are when looking at a massive sample size.
5
#5
15 Frags +

I would imagine it wouldn’t affect winrates much. At the lower levels people aren’t smart enough to use the jumps so it wouldn’t matter and at the higher levels everyone knows how to left handed rocket jump. Also switching teams at both halves pretty much negates this entire issue

I would imagine it wouldn’t affect winrates much. At the lower levels people aren’t smart enough to use the jumps so it wouldn’t matter and at the higher levels everyone knows how to left handed rocket jump. Also switching teams at both halves pretty much negates this entire issue
6
#6
-27 Frags +
MechaThey should add an option for centered projectiles because there is one for left handed projectiles.

Original

[quote=Mecha]They should add an option for centered projectiles because there is one for left handed projectiles.[/quote]
Original
7
#7
3 Frags +
VisMechaThey should add an option for centered projectiles because there is one for left handed projectiles.Original

Nothing for stickies or pipes?

[quote=Vis][quote=Mecha]They should add an option for centered projectiles because there is one for left handed projectiles.[/quote]
Original[/quote]
Nothing for stickies or pipes?
8
#8
-3 Frags +

mirror maps (slightly) favor the more polyvalent jumper who can adapt to both sides. Who would have thought, the better player gets a reward for training his two sides...

mirror maps (slightly) favor the more polyvalent jumper who can adapt to both sides. Who would have thought, the better player gets a reward for training his two sides...
9
#9
-6 Frags +

Who cares? Both teams play both sides.

Who cares? Both teams play both sides.
10
#10
12 Frags +
the301stspartanWho cares? Both teams play both sides.

not in real leagues

[quote=the301stspartan]Who cares? Both teams play both sides.[/quote]

not in real leagues
11
#11
TF2 Pro League
7 Frags +

Mould (good) has been working on a KotH map and he attested that enforcing rotational symmetry does hinder creativity in significant ways

Mould (good) has been working on a KotH map and he attested that enforcing rotational symmetry does hinder creativity in significant ways
12
#12
0 Frags +

ASHVILLE SUCKS

ASHVILLE SUCKS
13
#13
16 Frags +

i think having to shoot around objects from the left/right side makes a bigger difference than rocket jumps

i think having to shoot around objects from the left/right side makes a bigger difference than rocket jumps
14
#14
9 Frags +
TwiiKuuMould (good) has been working on a KotH map and he attested that enforcing rotational symmetry does hinder creativity in significant ways

to sort of build on that, my opinion is basically that rotational symmetry on koth is really difficult because the playspace is lowered pretty significantly.

If you don't add the flank route to the end of the main route, as seen in bagel, you won't have one at all, given that you don't want a map with a 'main' reaching the point and then a flank route on each side. Ramjam is an example of a map where this happens, the result is that it's too big for 6s specifically, and that many flank routes is basically unwatchable (problem with my awful koth map)
The problem with that is that a flank fight where one sector has heals and the other doesn't, that's not really a flank fight and doesn't give you anything to work with as a flank player - each team will almost always roll out to the opposite side.

I found that it was almost impossible to create any flank without resorting to underneath flanks which, in my experience, are horrid to fight in and results in boring 'is someone watching it or not' play.

it's pretty much not even an argument that one side does get an advantage, I think the question should more be 'is it worth it' which in my opinion it is

[quote=TwiiKuu]Mould (good) has been working on a KotH map and he attested that enforcing rotational symmetry does hinder creativity in significant ways[/quote]

to sort of build on that, my opinion is basically that rotational symmetry on koth is really difficult because the playspace is lowered pretty significantly.

If you don't add the flank route to the end of the main route, as seen in bagel, you won't have one at all, given that you don't want a map with a 'main' reaching the point and then a flank route on each side. Ramjam is an example of a map where this happens, the result is that it's too big for 6s specifically, and that many flank routes is basically unwatchable (problem with my awful koth map)
The problem with that is that a flank fight where one sector has heals and the other doesn't, that's not really a flank fight and doesn't give you anything to work with as a flank player - each team will almost always roll out to the opposite side.

I found that it was almost impossible to create any flank without resorting to underneath flanks which, in my experience, are horrid to fight in and results in boring 'is someone watching it or not' play.

it's pretty much not even an argument that one side does get an advantage, I think the question should more be 'is it worth it' which in my opinion it is
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