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December Global Whitelist Changes
91
#91
-5 Frags +
ArguedOystermichael-it lowers the skill ceiling
ROFL

and with the dragon's fury, you can get that damage at a range with a more consistent damage output (at least according to aforementioned graph you referenced). i was also comparing dragon's fury projectiles to other projectiles, not other flame throwers but whatever.

that video's also a few month old, just around the release iirc. there have been some fixes to the wonkiness with the range and some other flame thrower related problems (i.e. october 31st patch addressed the range issue, some other hit detection stuff around the same time). those are, presumably, just release bugs that shouldn't be treated as an accurate comparison to sidegrades in terms of the skill ceiling.

rarely in 6s have i seen a pyro be able to successfully run into an enemy team and get in range to deal that much damage. remember that pyro is an off-class that's not going to be able to charge directly at the enemy team with heals and be able do that.

i'm not sure why showing the general bugginess of flame throwers post-release counters my claim that the dragon's fury should remain banned for the time being.

[quote=ArguedOyster][quote=michael-]it lowers the skill ceiling[/quote]

[url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aIIgr_qt8mw&t=2m6s]ROFL[/url][/quote]

and with the dragon's fury, you can get that damage at a range with a more consistent damage output (at least according to aforementioned graph you referenced). i was also comparing dragon's fury projectiles to other projectiles, not other flame throwers but whatever.

that video's also a few month old, just around the release iirc. there have been some fixes to the wonkiness with the range and some other flame thrower related problems (i.e. october 31st patch addressed the range issue, some other hit detection stuff around the same time). those are, presumably, just release bugs that shouldn't be treated as an accurate comparison to sidegrades in terms of the skill ceiling.

rarely in 6s have i seen a pyro be able to successfully run into an enemy team and get in range to deal that much damage. remember that pyro is an off-class that's not going to be able to charge directly at the enemy team with heals and be able do that.

i'm not sure why showing the general bugginess of flame throwers post-release counters my claim that the dragon's fury should remain banned for the time being.
92
#92
12 Frags +
b4nnyAt this point, only game breaking items should be banned, and the goal to should be to have as few items banned as possible.

why? why "at this point"? personally im not against adding useless items to the game but adding a bunch of items like the vacc or quickfix which make the game a small amount worse while not completely ruining it still makes the game worse. bad unlocks can work additively in making the game worse

b4nnyAfter their buffs, these items may simply be "overpowered" they have not proven to be game breaking and should not be banned:
  • natascha i dont really care about tbh, could be unbanned. the slow is a little annoying on scout but it doesn't really matter to me
  • pocket pistol is pretty fucking good and you'd be stupid not to use it. it's not really oppressive but it contributes to the scout class shitting on everything, admittedly where they're not really best played at the moment (i.e. without the 185 beam)
  • cow mangler change is obviously very random and makes no difference in practice. people find it annoying to use which i can understand. the infinite ammo is VERY good and one soldier should be using it imo. whether that's good or bad is probably for others to decide (it makes spam forces better but on the other hand the extra spam it gives can also help you push)
b4nnyWhile it's good that a few items are being unbanned after Jungle Inferno rebalances, there were several more than just 4 previously banned items nerfed in such a way that they should also be unbanned including:
  • atomizer becomes basically a winger. extra jump height at the cost of the ability to build uber. probably could be unbanned - it's less usable when fighting someone but lets you dodge more if you use it well
  • cola should absolutely not be unbanned and will probably be very oppressive if you run it to mids and use it to deny soldiers. you get no debuff on it until you shoot (except the loss of a pistol which isn't really that big)
  • the guillotine does 50 + 40 bleed damage and recharges crazily fast. would get very annoying to play against and the loss of the stun/minicrit makes it a little worse but not by much in practice.
  • Fist of Steel, sure. MIGHT be a little oppressive since you can tank a lot while the med still heals someone else but the attacking team should probably just ignore you
  • Rescue Ranger NONONONONONO. the metal cost doesn't fucking matter. you can still sit in spawn and heal your sentry for no downside and rarely run out of metal even if you ignore the fact that you can usually build a dispenser next to you or go into spawn for a second. running a sentry for very little risk makes it oppressive and makes last a lot harder to push.
  • Reserve Shooter - have you played against this in mge, or used it even a little? you have INSANE air denial potential. a tanked pocket can do the job of damage and denial pretty well with this. might not BREAK the game but it's very annoying to play against and would make sacs very hard
b4nnyThen there are other lingering items on the current whitelist you proposed that have either similarly not been proven to be game breaking, have been nerfed at some point in the past and never re-evaluated or were unjustly banned previously including:

i cba to comment on all this stuff so ill just make short comments

  • Soda Popper - idk tbh, would probably need to see it in practice
  • Mantreads - sure, it's not annoying and not particularly good in general. interesting tech choice for sacs
  • Buffalo Steak Sandvich is banned because it makes aids heavy to mid much more viable on certain maps
  • Second Banana is probably bad because it drops small packs
  • Solemn Vow. etf2l HAS tested this (do you pay any attention at all?). general consensus is it lowers the skill ceiling of teams knowing who's weak and is more boring for medic.
  • Vaccinator has had pages of shit written on it. in general if you wipe on mid it's a no brainer to use on last and slows the game down. that makes it bannable imo but i could be convinced otherwise
  • Jarate is free minicrits when you run sniper. meh.
  • Dragon's Fury, idk. pyro smells. people seem to hate it
  • Quick Fix probably needs testing. still builds significantly quicker than uber
b4nnyFor things like Soda Popper, Quick Fix, Solemn Vow, and Dragon's Fury, ideally we could have some sort of testing tournaments that feature those items in order to properly evaluate them.

dragons fury and solemn vow have been tested.

b4nnyThe only weapons that I'd say are still certainly game breaking and should remain on the ban list are:
  • Disciplinary Action is banned BECAUSE OF HEAVY TO MID, not because it's required (escape plan, gunboats and crossbow are all required at this point)
  • Sydney Sleeper stay banned, sure
  • Short Circuit isn't as bad as you think it is but it should probably still be banned imo.
  • Wrangler stay banned, sure
  • Mad Milk stay banned, sure

im just a poop middie so im probably wrong on a few things and stuff often ends up different when used in practice. i expect either essentials or etf2l or both to run an experimental cup on this in the new year, dont panic yet

[quote=b4nny]At this point, only game breaking items should be banned, and the goal to should be to have as few items banned as possible.[/quote]

why? why "at this point"? personally im not against adding useless items to the game but adding a bunch of items like the vacc or quickfix which make the game a small amount worse while not completely ruining it still makes the game worse. bad unlocks can work additively in making the game worse

[quote=b4nny]After their buffs, these items may simply be "overpowered" they have not proven to be game breaking and should not be banned:[/quote]
[list]
[*] natascha i dont really care about tbh, could be unbanned. the slow is a little annoying on scout but it doesn't really matter to me
[*] pocket pistol is pretty fucking good and you'd be stupid not to use it. it's not really oppressive but it contributes to the scout class shitting on everything, admittedly where they're not really best played at the moment (i.e. without the 185 beam)
[*] cow mangler change is obviously very random and makes no difference in practice. people find it annoying to use which i can understand. the infinite ammo is VERY good and one soldier should be using it imo. whether that's good or bad is probably for others to decide (it makes spam forces better but on the other hand the extra spam it gives can also help you push)
[/list]

[quote=b4nny]While it's good that a few items are being unbanned after Jungle Inferno rebalances, there were several more than just 4 previously banned items nerfed in such a way that they should also be unbanned including:[/quote]

[list]
[*] atomizer becomes basically a winger. extra jump height at the cost of the ability to build uber. probably could be unbanned - it's less usable when fighting someone but lets you dodge more if you use it well
[*] cola should absolutely not be unbanned and will probably be very oppressive if you run it to mids and use it to deny soldiers. you get no debuff on it until you shoot (except the loss of a pistol which isn't really that big)
[*] the guillotine does 50 + 40 bleed damage and recharges crazily fast. would get very annoying to play against and the loss of the stun/minicrit makes it a little worse but not by much in practice.
[*] Fist of Steel, sure. MIGHT be a little oppressive since you can tank a lot while the med still heals someone else but the attacking team should probably just ignore you
[*] Rescue Ranger NONONONONONO. the metal cost doesn't fucking matter. you can still sit in spawn and heal your sentry for no downside and rarely run out of metal even if you ignore the fact that you can usually build a dispenser next to you or go into spawn for a second. running a sentry for very little risk makes it oppressive and makes last a lot harder to push.
[*] Reserve Shooter - have you played against this in mge, or used it even a little? you have INSANE air denial potential. a tanked pocket can do the job of damage and denial pretty well with this. might not BREAK the game but it's very annoying to play against and would make sacs very hard
[/list]

[quote=b4nny]Then there are other lingering items on the current whitelist you proposed that have either similarly not been proven to be game breaking, have been nerfed at some point in the past and never re-evaluated or were unjustly banned previously including:[/quote]

i cba to comment on all this stuff so ill just make short comments

[list]
[*] Soda Popper - idk tbh, would probably need to see it in practice
[*] Mantreads - sure, it's not annoying and not particularly good in general. interesting tech choice for sacs
[*] Buffalo Steak Sandvich is banned because it makes aids heavy to mid much more viable on certain maps
[*] Second Banana is probably bad because it drops small packs
[*] Solemn Vow. etf2l HAS tested this (do you pay any attention at all?). general consensus is it lowers the skill ceiling of teams knowing who's weak and is more boring for medic.
[*] Vaccinator has had pages of shit written on it. in general if you wipe on mid it's a no brainer to use on last and slows the game down. that makes it bannable imo but i could be convinced otherwise
[*] Jarate is free minicrits when you run sniper. meh.
[*] Dragon's Fury, idk. pyro smells. people seem to hate it
[*] Quick Fix probably needs testing. still builds significantly quicker than uber
[/list]

[quote=b4nny]For things like Soda Popper, Quick Fix, Solemn Vow, and Dragon's Fury, ideally we could have some sort of testing tournaments that feature those items in order to properly evaluate them.[/quote]

dragons fury and solemn vow have been tested.

[quote=b4nny]
The only weapons that I'd say are still certainly game breaking and should remain on the ban list are:[/quote]

[list]
[*] Disciplinary Action is banned BECAUSE OF HEAVY TO MID, not because it's required (escape plan, gunboats and crossbow are all required at this point)
[*] Sydney Sleeper stay banned, sure
[*] Short Circuit isn't as bad as you think it is but it should probably still be banned imo.
[*] Wrangler stay banned, sure
[*] Mad Milk stay banned, sure
[/list]

im just a poop middie so im probably wrong on a few things and stuff often ends up different when used in practice. i expect either essentials or etf2l or both to run an experimental cup on this in the new year, dont panic yet
93
#93
0 Frags +

yeah lets add more gay unlocks to convince eduardo.sandvich007 to stop playing dustbowl and start playing open
like this game wont grow by adding unlocks most pubbers dont want to actively try or grind or practice so youre not catering to them; you cater to people who like to play gay in pugs
all this dumb shit is just stupid lmao like id laugh if i saw it in a pug once or twice but actually playing against shit like rescue ranger quick fix is aids and boring
if equipping a goofy unlock suddenly makes u better at standing at last and not dying then its probably shitty game design because valve is garbage and they add farting pyro taunts and 1.02x10^12 skins while also breaking hitreg
they break air strafing or rocket jumping every major update its more stupid to give a shit about some incompetent devs than people playing pubs with 10 hours

yeah lets add more gay unlocks to convince eduardo.sandvich007 to stop playing dustbowl and start playing open
like this game wont grow by adding unlocks most pubbers dont want to actively try or grind or practice so youre not catering to them; you cater to people who like to play gay in pugs
all this dumb shit is just stupid lmao like id laugh if i saw it in a pug once or twice but actually playing against shit like rescue ranger quick fix is aids and boring
if equipping a goofy unlock suddenly makes u better at standing at last and not dying then its probably shitty game design because valve is garbage and they add farting pyro taunts and 1.02x10^12 skins while also breaking hitreg
they break air strafing or rocket jumping every major update its more stupid to give a shit about some incompetent devs than people playing pubs with 10 hours
94
#94
28 Frags +

who r the global admins

who r the global admins
95
#95
21 Frags +

Do not unban the fucking base jumper again D:

Do not unban the fucking base jumper again D:
96
#96
3 Frags +
Lonsforb4nnyDisciplinary Action (forces both teams to run it for speed to mid fights)
Is this a valid reason considering the Escape Plan is already the only choice?

The whip makes it so you can roll out a heavy or an engie to mid at the same rate as the other classes (besides demo) negating the innate downside of those classes, that being the low mobility.

[quote=Lonsfor][quote=b4nny]
Disciplinary Action (forces both teams to run it for speed to mid fights)[/quote]

Is this a valid reason considering the Escape Plan is already the only choice?[/quote]
The whip makes it so you can roll out a heavy or an engie to mid at the same rate as the other classes (besides demo) negating the innate downside of those classes, that being the low mobility.
97
#97
15 Frags +
ReflectoDo not unban the fucking base jumper again D:

https://clips.twitch.tv/SmellySpinelessHamDancingBanana
https://clips.twitch.tv/KawaiiGlutenFreePotatoBigBrother

[quote=Reflecto]Do not unban the fucking base jumper again D:[/quote]
https://clips.twitch.tv/SmellySpinelessHamDancingBanana
https://clips.twitch.tv/KawaiiGlutenFreePotatoBigBrother
98
#98
9 Frags +

For as bad as ugc can be the one thing they do really well are the polls they have after every season.

Basically, a google form goes out via email that lets players vote on things like maps(scale 1-5 do you like it), unlocks(ban or unban worthy?), and just general things about the league. Admins later post the data and sort it by div (steel/silver/plat).

The whole process is really good because there’s so much transparency and because its a good way of surveying ugc player opinions. While I personally think ugc admins have made....questionable decisions after collecting the data it is miles better than all this behind-the-scenes shenanigans that go on here, where it’s unclear how admins come to this conclusion and the community consensus is unclear as well. It also gives a lot of power to whoever’s the loudest poster here on tftv, whereas everybody that plays in esea/etf2l/ozfortress obviously doesnt necessarily post often but their opinions regarding maps/unlocks/whatever still matter.

For as bad as ugc can be the one thing they do really well are the polls they have after every season.

Basically, a google form goes out via email that lets players vote on things like maps(scale 1-5 do you like it), unlocks(ban or unban worthy?), and just general things about the league. Admins later post the data and sort it by div (steel/silver/plat).

The whole process is really good because there’s so much transparency and because its a good way of surveying ugc player opinions. While I personally think ugc admins have made....questionable decisions after collecting the data it is [i]miles[/i] better than all this behind-the-scenes shenanigans that go on here, where it’s unclear how admins come to this conclusion and the community consensus is unclear as well. It also gives a lot of power to whoever’s the loudest poster here on tftv, whereas everybody that plays in esea/etf2l/ozfortress obviously doesnt necessarily post often but their opinions regarding maps/unlocks/whatever still matter.
99
#99
9 Frags +
messiahReflectoDo not unban the fucking base jumper again D:https://clips.twitch.tv/SmellySpinelessHamDancingBanana
https://clips.twitch.tv/KawaiiGlutenFreePotatoBigBrother

I really feel like the base jumper is getting glanced over and people are talking about the cowmangler and other shit. I don't think it matters at all that you cant spam the base jumped anymore. Sure that was good but it doesn't hurt it much to take that away. IMO on any mid where you can high bomb its fucking ridiculous. You would basically have 2 options you either dedicate your scouts attention to doing 6 damage shots at a soldier in the skybox who has the easiest spam of his life. Or you focus of the things in front of you and a solder falls from the sky from you after you stop looking at him. I think it will make mids completely unbearable. Outside of mid it might be just ok, still good. But on mids you will lose your will to live.

[quote=messiah][quote=Reflecto]Do not unban the fucking base jumper again D:[/quote]
https://clips.twitch.tv/SmellySpinelessHamDancingBanana
https://clips.twitch.tv/KawaiiGlutenFreePotatoBigBrother[/quote]
I really feel like the base jumper is getting glanced over and people are talking about the cowmangler and other shit. I don't think it matters at all that you cant spam the base jumped anymore. Sure that was good but it doesn't hurt it much to take that away. IMO on any mid where you can high bomb its fucking ridiculous. You would basically have 2 options you either dedicate your scouts attention to doing 6 damage shots at a soldier in the skybox who has the easiest spam of his life. Or you focus of the things in front of you and a solder falls from the sky from you after you stop looking at him. I think it will make mids completely unbearable. Outside of mid it might be just ok, still good. But on mids you will lose your will to live.
100
#100
ETF2L
16 Frags +

Hi everyone,

I've added a mention for the banana in the OP as it seemed to have slipped under the radar.
Apart from that I'll give a quick rundown of my personal thoughts + answer some concerns mention in the thread.

Feedback Info
First things first, how was feedback gathered for this Whitelist. We always try to get a decent sample pool of our players for feedback. With ETF2L I always try to message every single main line-up Premiership player from the past season(Although I sadly enough cant always reach all of them). I do this as it allows me to ask for some weapons more in detail as well as try to understand their reasoning behind their statements. A yes or no from a poll result does very little and polls generally get ignored by a lot of people.Which is why I tend to go for this option as I feel that a conversation holds way more value.

"Banning Pyro"
If this is what came across after reading the news post then sorry as this was not the intention. Banning Pyro, although sounding tempting ;), is never going to be the solution. The wording is like this due to the large changes that Pyro has gotten in the update. This affects the class as a whole rather then specific unlocks. Meaning that within the short amount of time that we have for testing we would like additional data on all the Pyro weapons. A couple of mentions I had received already where:
The Powerjack due to it allowing Pyro to get to mid only 2 seconds later then the Scout.
Scorch Shot as well as the Detonator due to how easy they are to spam and the amount of damage that can get done with them.

The Dragon's Fury
The Dragon's Fury was one of the weapons I got the most responses when asking around as it is probably the most unknown as well as scary factor of the new Pyro weapons. But from all the people that I asked 72% where in favor of keeping it banned, 8% was interested in trying it out and the remaining percentage wanted it unbanned.

And personally I very much agree with keeping it banned. Testing would always be an interesting thing for the future but testing it now would mean that it would get the largest part of the attention and the remainder of the Pyro weapons might not even see daylight. With how current flamethrowers already seem like an issue I personally would want feedback on them over just the Dragons Fury any time of day.

Weapons
Why are these specific 4 weapons being tested? Well because none of them have seen competitive play before(Or at least not a lot). Meaning that we dont have a base line where we can compare the changes to. All 4 of these weapons hold the possibility to be used in the finalized Whitelist but is an uncertainty due to this lack of data.
Why are there only 4 weapons being tested? Its the middle of the holidays and there is little time to test the weapons. So in the hopes that they would get tested we left it at a low amount so there is enough time to test them all.

There are some weapons that have gotten mentions so I'll give some quick rundowns of my personal notes/thoughts:

  • Mantreads
    Still bugged, if it wasnt it would be an interesting weapon but would have to get tested imo.
  • Natascha & Cow Mangler
    Both of the weapons are pretty braindead. They dont add a lot if anything to 6v6 and with Valve buffing both of them in the update it just shows how out of touch they are on certain aspects. The changes that they received dont suddenly turn them OP or anything similar but the weapons both rather disrupt 6v6 then anything.
    Infinite ammo always seemed like a crutch and encourages brainless spam.
    Being able to fuck up people's movement makes the weapon very easy to run on open defenses. While granting yourself damage resistance and making your target a sitting duck allowing the downside of reduced damage to be almost negligible.
  • Atomizer, interesting due it having to be hold out but giving scout more mobility seems like a bad idea. It can be tested at one point in time but not during the short period we have now.
  • Machina
    I'm personally 50/50 on the weapon.
  • Solemn Vow
    Tested multiple times in ETF2L. Always an interesting discussion but also always a majority that want to keep it banned. Maybe at one point in the future it can be looked at once more.
  • Reserve Shooter & Crit-a-Cola
    Free minicrits are a no-go in my book.
ArguedOyster...

Thanks for the comma note, I've edited it in the main post. Hope its easier to read now.
If anybody finds any other typo's in the OP feel free to point it out.

In the end a quick thanks to everybody that is taking part in the conversation!

Hi everyone,

I've added a mention for the banana in the OP as it seemed to have slipped under the radar.
Apart from that I'll give a quick rundown of my personal thoughts + answer some concerns mention in the thread.

[h]Feedback Info[/h]
First things first, how was feedback gathered for this Whitelist. We always try to get a decent sample pool of our players for feedback. With ETF2L I always try to message every single main line-up Premiership player from the past season(Although I sadly enough cant always reach all of them). I do this as it allows me to ask for some weapons more in detail as well as try to understand their reasoning behind their statements. A yes or no from a poll result does very little and polls generally get ignored by a lot of people.Which is why I tend to go for this option as I feel that a conversation holds way more value.

[h]"Banning Pyro"[/h]
If this is what came across after reading the news post then sorry as this was not the intention. Banning Pyro, although sounding tempting ;), is never going to be the solution. The wording is like this due to the large changes that Pyro has gotten in the update. This affects the class as a whole rather then specific unlocks. Meaning that within the short amount of time that we have for testing we would like additional data on all the Pyro weapons. A couple of mentions I had received already where:
[u]The Powerjack[/u] due to it allowing Pyro to get to mid only 2 seconds later then the Scout.
[u]Scorch Shot[/u] as well as the [u]Detonator[/u] due to how easy they are to spam and the amount of damage that can get done with them.

[h]The Dragon's Fury[/h]
The Dragon's Fury was one of the weapons I got the most responses when asking around as it is probably the most unknown as well as scary factor of the new Pyro weapons. But from all the people that I asked 72% where in favor of keeping it banned, 8% was interested in trying it out and the remaining percentage wanted it unbanned.

And personally I very much agree with keeping it banned. Testing would always be an interesting thing for the future but testing it now would mean that it would get the largest part of the attention and the remainder of the Pyro weapons might not even see daylight. With how current flamethrowers already seem like an issue I personally would want feedback on them over just the Dragons Fury any time of day.

[h]Weapons[/h]
Why are these specific 4 weapons being tested? Well because none of them have seen competitive play before(Or at least not a lot). Meaning that we dont have a base line where we can compare the changes to. All 4 of these weapons hold the possibility to be used in the finalized Whitelist but is an uncertainty due to this lack of data.
Why are there only 4 weapons being tested? Its the middle of the holidays and there is little time to test the weapons. So in the hopes that they would get tested we left it at a low amount so there is enough time to test them all.

There are some weapons that have gotten mentions so I'll give some quick rundowns of my personal notes/thoughts:
[list]
[*] [u]Mantreads[/u]
Still bugged, if it wasnt it would be an interesting weapon but would have to get tested imo.
[*] [u]Natascha & Cow Mangler[/u]
Both of the weapons are pretty braindead. They dont add a lot if anything to 6v6 and with Valve buffing both of them in the update it just shows how out of touch they are on certain aspects. The changes that they received dont suddenly turn them OP or anything similar but the weapons both rather disrupt 6v6 then anything.
Infinite ammo always seemed like a crutch and encourages brainless spam.
Being able to fuck up people's movement makes the weapon very easy to run on open defenses. While granting yourself damage resistance and making your target a sitting duck allowing the downside of reduced damage to be almost negligible.
[*] Atomizer, interesting due it having to be hold out but giving scout more mobility seems like a bad idea. It can be tested at one point in time but not during the short period we have now.
[*] [u]Machina[/u]
I'm personally 50/50 on the weapon.
[*] [u]Solemn Vow[/u]
Tested multiple times in ETF2L. Always an interesting discussion but also always a majority that want to keep it banned. Maybe at one point in the future it can be looked at once more.
[*] [u]Reserve Shooter & Crit-a-Cola[/u]
Free minicrits are a no-go in my book.
[/list]

[quote=ArguedOyster]...[/quote]
Thanks for the comma note, I've edited it in the main post. Hope its easier to read now.
If anybody finds any other typo's in the OP feel free to point it out.

In the end a quick thanks to everybody that is taking part in the conversation!
101
#101
-2 Frags +
Aoshi[*] Atomizer, interesting due it having to be hold out but giving scout more mobility seems like a bad idea. It can be tested at one point in time but not during the short period we have now.

It'll probably be strong to stop shooting your scattergun to dodge a rocket, but it's definitely an interesting tradeoff now. Do you just finish off the soldier with damage, or do you spend a second or two not doing anything to live?

Sure, we'll see some jumps like these from the first unban

Show Content

but they're not exactly gamebreaking.

[quote=Aoshi]
[*] Atomizer, interesting due it having to be hold out but giving scout more mobility seems like a bad idea. It can be tested at one point in time but not during the short period we have now.
[/quote]

It'll probably be strong to stop shooting your scattergun to dodge a rocket, but it's definitely an interesting tradeoff now. Do you just finish off the soldier with damage, or do you spend a second or two not doing anything to live?

Sure, we'll see some jumps like these from the first unban [spoiler][youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gMxV_wKaB_U[/youtube][/spoiler] but they're not exactly gamebreaking.
102
#102
3 Frags +
First things first, how was feedback gathered for this Whitelist. We always try to get a decent sample pool of our players for feedback. With ETF2L I always try to message every single main line-up Premiership player from the past season(Although I sadly enough cant always reach all of them). I do this as it allows me to ask for some weapons more in detail as well as try to understand their reasoning behind their statements. A yes or no from a poll result does very little and polls generally gets ignored by a lot of people.Which is why I tend to go for this option as I feel that a conversation holds way more value.

The Dragon's Fury was one of the weapons I got the most responses when asking around as it is probably the most unknown as well as scary factor of the new Pyro weapons. But from all the people that I asked 72% where in favor of keeping it banned, 8% was interested in trying it out and the remaining percentage wanted it unbanned.

I thought this was a global whitelist. Why, exactly, were only ETF2L players consulted, and why, exactly, should ESEA players give a fuck about the ETF2L whitelist if they don't give a fuck about us?

Why are these specific 4 weapons being tested? Well because none of them have seen competitive play before(Or at least not a lot). Meaning that we dont have a base line where we can compare the changes to. All 4 of these weapons hold the possibility to be used in the finalized Whitelist but is an uncertainty due to this lack of data.

By this logic, you should also be testing Dragon's Fury, whip, Short Circuit, Wrangler, and Second Banana.

EDIT: also hot hand and jetpack

EDIT: and guillotine. and CaC. and atomizer.

Also, we have allowed Bonk extensively, and it proved to be extensively utter bullshit. The nerf is completely irrelevant to the fact that there is no way to deny a Bonk Scout from going where he wants to go without spending a disproportionately large amount of attention and ammo, and the Scout can time it so he lands on your Medic right as he stops being invincible.

And personally I very much agree with keeping it banned. Testing would always be an interesting thing for the future but testing it now would mean that it would get the largest part of the attention and the remainder of the Pyro weapons might not even see daylight. With how current flamethrowers already seem like an issue I personally would want feedback on them over just the Dragons Fury any time of day.

This doesn't make sense. Dragon's Fury is the only new primary. You can run Dragon's Fury, either Jetpack or Gas Passer, and Hot Hand at the same time.

EDIT: Oh, you’re talking about the Backburner. If you’re concerned about multiple weapons why not just ban that, since it’s bugged? It’s not like anyone will use the Backburner anyway, I’m pretty sure I’m the only 6s player who has equipped that thing in the last year.

Natascha & Cow Mangler
Both of the weapons are pretty braindead. They dont add a lot if anything to 6v6 and with Valve buffing both of them in the update it just shows how out of touch they are on certain aspects. The changes that they received dont suddenly turn them OP or anything similar but the weapons both rather disrupt 6v6 then anything.

The choice between shooting four rockets or shooting one minicrit rocket while being basically immobile is an interesting decision, there are a few new fast rollouts that look to charge shot the Demo or the combo as they get to mid. Also, ammo management is not interesting. Teams don't push when Soldiers run out of ammo, the only way it’ll make the game faster is because there’ll always be two Soldiers to kill the Sentry.

As for the Natascha, what exactly got changed? Do you mean that all miniguns ramp slightly faster? Because that doesn't change Natascha's standing among miniguns. As for the notion that Natascha is "braindead", Heavy is braindead. Why not ban Heavy? Deciding which primary to use, Tomislav's sniping vs Stock's power vs Natascha's close-range slow vs non-Ubered targets and damage resist is possibly the only part of Heavy that takes a brain, besides revving (which is slower, and therefore more inflexible and punishing with Natascha).

Atomizer, interesting due it having to be hold out but giving scout more mobility seems like a bad idea. It can be tested at one point in time but not during the short period we have now.

Why is this short period we have now sufficient to test parachute and bonk, which are hugely different and complex, but not Atomizer? Atomizer third jump is basically the same thing as the Winger. We know what Winger jumps are at this point, the only question is if Pistol / Atomizer is too strong or if people abuse the third jump in-combat and it's too strong (unlikely).

Machina
I'm personally 50/50 on the weapon.

Speaking of brainless weapons, why the fuck is this shit still here?

[quote]First things first, how was feedback gathered for this Whitelist. We always try to get a decent sample pool of our players for feedback. With ETF2L I always try to message every single main line-up Premiership player from the past season(Although I sadly enough cant always reach all of them). I do this as it allows me to ask for some weapons more in detail as well as try to understand their reasoning behind their statements. A yes or no from a poll result does very little and polls generally gets ignored by a lot of people.Which is why I tend to go for this option as I feel that a conversation holds way more value.

The Dragon's Fury was one of the weapons I got the most responses when asking around as it is probably the most unknown as well as scary factor of the new Pyro weapons. But from all the people that I asked 72% where in favor of keeping it banned, 8% was interested in trying it out and the remaining percentage wanted it unbanned.
[/quote]

I thought this was a global whitelist. Why, exactly, were only ETF2L players consulted, and why, exactly, should ESEA players give a fuck about the ETF2L whitelist if they don't give a fuck about us?

[quote]Why are these specific 4 weapons being tested? Well because none of them have seen competitive play before(Or at least not a lot). Meaning that we dont have a base line where we can compare the changes to. All 4 of these weapons hold the possibility to be used in the finalized Whitelist but is an uncertainty due to this lack of data.[/quote]

By this logic, you should also be testing Dragon's Fury, whip, Short Circuit, Wrangler, and Second Banana.

EDIT: also hot hand and jetpack

EDIT: and guillotine. and CaC. and atomizer.

Also, we have allowed Bonk extensively, and it proved to be extensively utter bullshit. The nerf is completely irrelevant to the fact that there is no way to deny a Bonk Scout from going where he wants to go without spending a disproportionately large amount of attention and ammo, and the Scout can time it so he lands on your Medic right as he stops being invincible.

[quote]And personally I very much agree with keeping it banned. Testing would always be an interesting thing for the future but testing it now would mean that it would get the largest part of the attention and the remainder of the Pyro weapons might not even see daylight. With how current flamethrowers already seem like an issue I personally would want feedback on them over just the Dragons Fury any time of day.[/quote]

This doesn't make sense. Dragon's Fury is the only new primary. You can run Dragon's Fury, either Jetpack or Gas Passer, and Hot Hand at the same time.

EDIT: Oh, you’re talking about the Backburner. If you’re concerned about multiple weapons why not just ban that, since it’s bugged? It’s not like anyone will use the Backburner anyway, I’m pretty sure I’m the only 6s player who has equipped that thing in the last year.

[quote]Natascha & Cow Mangler
Both of the weapons are pretty braindead. They dont add a lot if anything to 6v6 and with Valve buffing both of them in the update it just shows how out of touch they are on certain aspects. The changes that they received dont suddenly turn them OP or anything similar but the weapons both rather disrupt 6v6 then anything.[/quote]

The choice between shooting four rockets or shooting one minicrit rocket while being basically immobile is an interesting decision, there are a few new fast rollouts that look to charge shot the Demo or the combo as they get to mid. Also, ammo management is not interesting. Teams don't push when Soldiers run out of ammo, the only way it’ll make the game faster is because there’ll always be two Soldiers to kill the Sentry.

As for the Natascha, what exactly got changed? Do you mean that all miniguns ramp slightly faster? Because that doesn't change Natascha's standing among miniguns. As for the notion that Natascha is "braindead", Heavy is braindead. Why not ban Heavy? Deciding which primary to use, Tomislav's sniping vs Stock's power vs Natascha's close-range slow vs non-Ubered targets and damage resist is possibly the only part of Heavy that takes a brain, besides revving (which is slower, and therefore more inflexible and punishing with Natascha).

[quote]Atomizer, interesting due it having to be hold out but giving scout more mobility seems like a bad idea. It can be tested at one point in time but not during the short period we have now.[/quote]

Why is this short period we have now sufficient to test parachute and bonk, which are hugely different and complex, but not Atomizer? Atomizer third jump is basically the same thing as the Winger. We know what Winger jumps are at this point, the only question is if Pistol / Atomizer is too strong or if people abuse the third jump in-combat and it's too strong (unlikely).

[quote]Machina
I'm personally 50/50 on the weapon.[/quote]

Speaking of brainless weapons, why the fuck is this shit still here?
103
#103
4 Frags +

Minor query; does the Atomizer have to be fully out in order to do the third jump or can one perform the third jump immediately upon switching to it? I'm away from my PC, so I can't hop on and test this.

Minor query; does the Atomizer have to be fully out in order to do the third jump or can one perform the third jump immediately upon switching to it? I'm away from my PC, so I can't hop on and test this.
104
#104
-15 Frags +

these threads always turn into shit that no one reads

these threads always turn into shit that no one reads
105
#105
8 Frags +
HalMinor query; does the Atomizer have to be fully out in order to do the third jump or can one perform the third jump immediately upon switching to it? I'm away from my PC, so I can't hop on and test this.

The weapon does not need to be fully deployed, similarly to how the Winger works.

[quote=Hal]Minor query; does the Atomizer have to be fully out in order to do the third jump or can one perform the third jump immediately upon switching to it? I'm away from my PC, so I can't hop on and test this.[/quote]
The weapon does not need to be fully deployed, similarly to how the Winger works.
106
#106
8 Frags +
michael-i know there's a bit more aim involvedmichael-it lowers the skill ceiling in tht regard.

im pretty sure the dragons fury takes way more aim than this and doesnt lower the skill ceiling in comparison, and yes this is optimal if you're able to hit more than one person with it since it automatically does full damage to everyone you hit with a particle

unless you think this takes more skill/aim than the dragons fury...?

e: dragons fury is only limited to killing 1 dude at a time basically, flamethrowers can just cleave everything, which isn't really that hard especially at most of the 5cp lasts and how people hold tbh

at least when i die to the DF i know someone had to actually click on me, not just spray their whole screen

of course the problem is you'd have to convince people to use the dragons fury when it really isn't actually good, a very tiny range increase and a tiny DPS increase on single target isn't as good as cleaving people, WAY EASIER max dps, and the tiny single target DPS decrease can be overcome on single target by Degreaser + Panic Attack shuffling which makes you not drop any fire damage while adding shotgun damage into the mix.

just imagine you have uber advantage at last and you just uber a pyro doing this with degreaser into badlands last or something, like the only real counter option is to also run a pyro and airblast spam and hope you don't get focus fired by the other people on the offense's team

[quote=michael-]i know there's a bit more aim involved[/quote]
[quote=michael-]it lowers the skill ceiling in tht regard.[/quote]

[url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a_2h1xvFdEU&t=1m50s]im pretty sure the dragons fury takes way more aim than this and doesnt lower the skill ceiling in comparison, and yes this is optimal if you're able to hit more than one person with it since it automatically does full damage to everyone you hit with a particle[/url]

unless you think this takes more skill/aim than the dragons fury...?

e: dragons fury is only limited to killing 1 dude at a time basically, flamethrowers can just cleave everything, which isn't really that hard especially at most of the 5cp lasts and how people hold tbh

at least when i die to the DF i know someone had to actually click on me, not just spray their whole screen

of course the problem is you'd have to convince people to use the dragons fury when it really isn't actually good, a very tiny range increase and a tiny DPS increase on single target isn't as good as cleaving people, WAY EASIER max dps, and the tiny single target DPS decrease can be overcome on single target by Degreaser + Panic Attack shuffling which makes you not drop any fire damage while adding shotgun damage into the mix.

just imagine you have uber advantage at last and you just uber a pyro doing this with degreaser into badlands last or something, like the only real counter option is to also run a pyro and airblast spam and hope you don't get focus fired by the other people on the offense's team
107
#107
2 Frags +

Theory crafting perfect usage is not really a fair way to judge items. When considering an item like the Flying Guillotine, for example, people keep instantly jumping to reference damage output for if you hit every single throw for maximum damage every time. If you could hit every single shot every time, sure it would be pretty damn dominant, but by that same logic everyone would be running The Direct Hit and fulltime Snipers too. We know that people don't do that because generally people favor consistent and reliable tools that don't require perfect execution to offer any sort of return. For this reason, the practical impacts should be the main consideration in these discussions. Even when something works in a certain situation, you also have to consider the majority of the times where it requires a sacrifice, hinders someone's play, or just straight up fails, but those are constantly ignored too. Again, you could grab a clip of someone going on a headshotting spree or a Direct Hit spree, yet we know in the bigger picture those kinds of things are the exception not the norm. What it seems to come down to is that people are more resistant to change and dying to something new even if something that has been around for years would have beat them too.

And that resistance to change is hurtful to TF2 as a competitive game. In most modern competitive games, the competitive and casual experience overlap perfectly, which creates a natural progression for new players that filters them into the competitive scene. We do not have that in TF2, and things like whitelists absolutely contribute to the fissure between competitive players and the rest of the playerbase and hurt the accessibility of it. If you are not convinced that TF2 is moving in a more competitive focused direction you're simply not paying attention. In the Jungle Inferno update, at least a dozen of the items that were considered problematic (banned) were changed to be much less problematic. This was based on direct feedback from the competitive scene. Now it's time to meet Valve halfway. Unban the items that were changed and are no longer gamebreaking, then hone in on the remaining banned items so that we can complete this process again during the next major update. Following this trajectory it may only take 1 or 2 more major balance updates before a whitelist is obsolete and every item can be allowed and a major barrier to entry of competitive TF2 will be eliminated. Keep in mind too that official competitive matchmaking will be essential to the growth of competitive TF2, and it will never have a whitelist, so we should be aiming to take steps to align with that system for the greater good.

If you're in competitive TF2 10 years later, you're probably going to stick around, but how is placating you going to help grow the game? The slight discomfort of adjusting to a more open whitelist are just the growing pains of competitive TF2.

Theory crafting perfect usage is not really a fair way to judge items. When considering an item like the Flying Guillotine, for example, people keep instantly jumping to reference damage output for if you hit every single throw for maximum damage every time. If you could hit every single shot every time, sure it would be pretty damn dominant, but by that same logic everyone would be running The Direct Hit and fulltime Snipers too. We know that people don't do that because generally people favor consistent and reliable tools that don't require perfect execution to offer any sort of return. For this reason, the practical impacts should be the main consideration in these discussions. Even when something works in a certain situation, you also have to consider the majority of the times where it requires a sacrifice, hinders someone's play, or just straight up fails, but those are constantly ignored too. Again, you could grab a clip of someone going on a headshotting spree or a Direct Hit spree, yet we know in the bigger picture those kinds of things are the exception not the norm. What it seems to come down to is that people are more resistant to change and dying to something new even if something that has been around for years would have beat them too.

And that resistance to change is hurtful to TF2 as a competitive game. In most modern competitive games, the competitive and casual experience overlap perfectly, which creates a natural progression for new players that filters them into the competitive scene. We do not have that in TF2, and things like whitelists absolutely contribute to the fissure between competitive players and the rest of the playerbase and hurt the accessibility of it. If you are not convinced that TF2 is moving in a more competitive focused direction you're simply not paying attention. In the Jungle Inferno update, at least a dozen of the items that were considered problematic (banned) were changed to be much less problematic. This was based on direct feedback from the competitive scene. Now it's time to meet Valve halfway. Unban the items that were changed and are no longer gamebreaking, then hone in on the remaining banned items so that we can complete this process again during the next major update. Following this trajectory it may only take 1 or 2 more major balance updates before a whitelist is obsolete and every item can be allowed and a major barrier to entry of competitive TF2 will be eliminated. Keep in mind too that official competitive matchmaking will be essential to the growth of competitive TF2, and it will never have a whitelist, so we should be aiming to take steps to align with that system for the greater good.

If you're in competitive TF2 10 years later, you're probably going to stick around, but how is placating you going to help grow the game? The slight discomfort of adjusting to a more open whitelist are just the growing pains of competitive TF2.
108
#108
5 Frags +
SolarLight The weapon does not need to be fully deployed, similarly to how the Winger works.

I wonder how worthwhile it would be for Scouts to have a bind to switch to melee, jump, then switch to previous weapon immediately...Scout would still have to deal with the time devoted to unholster and holster the Atomizer. The thing has an extra 50% deploy time. Would this be a viable maneuver or would it just be better for the Scout to come back to Earth and keep shooting/reloading?

[quote=SolarLight] The weapon does not need to be fully deployed, similarly to how the Winger works.[/quote]

I wonder how worthwhile it would be for Scouts to have a bind to switch to melee, jump, then switch to previous weapon immediately...Scout would still have to deal with the time devoted to unholster and holster the Atomizer. The thing has an extra 50% deploy time. Would this be a viable maneuver or would it just be better for the Scout to come back to Earth and keep shooting/reloading?
109
#109
13 Frags +

I'm not reading 4 pages of paragraphs typed out but the fact that no one in invite got a single word in on these bans is a joke

p.s. mangler is fine unban it

p.p.s. base jumper is really fucking dumb you can deploy it on the sky box and the only player that can do good damage to you is a demo airdeting

I'm not reading 4 pages of paragraphs typed out but the fact that no one in invite got a single word in on these bans is a joke


p.s. mangler is fine unban it

p.p.s. base jumper is really fucking dumb you can deploy it on the sky box and the only player that can do good damage to you is a demo airdeting
110
#110
11 Frags +

DarkNecrid articulated it better than I ever could. The new Flamethrower isn’t slightly easier to aim, it literally has perfect accuracy so long as you manage to hit one particle out of every ten. The Dragon’s Fury also punishes you severely for missing, and crucially, you can’t airblast after pressing m1, which is hugely significant when playing a reflect mindgame or fighting multiple opponents, as the Soldier/Demo has a window where they are completely safe if they shoot a projectile against DF while they can never be sure if you're spraying them with flames.

I’ve been fighting Degreaser Pyros for months in HL and it is frustrating as fuck. There are players that formerly pulled sub 150 DPM and whose playstyles consisted entirely of spychecking, stalling Uber, and killing bombers, players who had exceedingly mediocre DM, who are now pulling 300-400 DPM and top fragging in plat because the new flames are so easy to aim that you have to actively try to miss them. I wish every other flamethrower was banned. I wish Pyro took skill again.

If Degreaser or even Stock Pyro is allowed and the Dragons Fury takes far more skill than them while sacrificing a shit ton of versatility (including the only reason anyone currently bothers using Pyro, uberstalling) for slightly more range vs a single target and being able to run Detonator, then the Dragons Fury should be unbanned. It’s worse at being a combat class than Scout and Soldier because of movespeed and worse at doing the Pyro’s job, airblasting. Anyone whining about the Dragons Fury needs to play a few weeks of Highlander fighting the new Flamethrower, and they’d be begging to include it.

b4nnyTheory crafting perfect usage is not really a fair way to judge items.

Agree, although I think considering how easy to use an item is compared to its counterparts is significant.

When considering an item like the Flying Guillotine, for example, people keep instantly jumping to reference damage output for if you hit every single throw for maximum damage every time. If you could hit every single shot every time, sure it would be pretty damn dominant, but by that same logic everyone would be running The Direct Hit and fulltime Snipers too. We know that people don't do that because generally people favor consistent and reliable tools that don't require perfect execution to offer any sort of return. For this reason, the practical impacts should be the main consideration in these discussions. Even when something works in a certain situation, you also have to consider the majority of the times where it requires a sacrifice, hinders someone's play, or just straight up fails, but those are constantly ignored too.

Is losing a Pistol really that much of a sacrifice? Is losing a Winger really that much of a sacrifice if the Atomizer is unbanned, a move that you support?

Again, you could grab a clip of someone going on a headshotting spree or a Direct Hit spree, yet we know in the bigger picture those kinds of things are the exception not the norm. What it seems to come down to is that people are more resistant to change and dying to something new even if something that has been around for years would have beat them too.

Agree. Remember when everyone refused to allow Powerjack because they were afraid that Pyro mids would destroy the game since Pyro is so much more powerful than a Scout or Soldier?

DarkNecrid articulated it better than I ever could. The new Flamethrower isn’t slightly easier to aim, it literally has perfect accuracy so long as you manage to hit one particle out of every ten. The Dragon’s Fury also punishes you severely for missing, and crucially, you can’t airblast after pressing m1, which is hugely significant when playing a reflect mindgame or fighting multiple opponents, as the Soldier/Demo has a window where they are completely safe if they shoot a projectile against DF while they can never be sure if you're spraying them with flames.

I’ve been fighting Degreaser Pyros for months in HL and it is frustrating as fuck. There are players that formerly pulled sub 150 DPM and whose playstyles consisted entirely of spychecking, stalling Uber, and killing bombers, players who had exceedingly mediocre DM, who are now pulling 300-400 DPM and top fragging in plat because the new flames are so easy to aim that you have to actively try to miss them. I wish every other flamethrower was banned. I wish Pyro took skill again.

If Degreaser or even Stock Pyro is allowed and the Dragons Fury takes far more skill than them while sacrificing a shit ton of versatility (including the only reason anyone currently bothers using Pyro, uberstalling) for slightly more range vs a single target and being able to run Detonator, then the Dragons Fury should be unbanned. It’s worse at being a combat class than Scout and Soldier because of movespeed and worse at doing the Pyro’s job, airblasting. Anyone whining about the Dragons Fury needs to play a few weeks of Highlander fighting the new Flamethrower, and they’d be begging to include it.

[quote=b4nny]Theory crafting perfect usage is not really a fair way to judge items.[/quote]

Agree, although I think considering how easy to use an item is compared to its counterparts is significant.

[quote]When considering an item like the Flying Guillotine, for example, people keep instantly jumping to reference damage output for if you hit every single throw for maximum damage every time. If you could hit every single shot every time, sure it would be pretty damn dominant, but by that same logic everyone would be running The Direct Hit and fulltime Snipers too. We know that people don't do that because generally people favor consistent and reliable tools that don't require perfect execution to offer any sort of return. For this reason, the practical impacts should be the main consideration in these discussions. Even when something works in a certain situation, you also have to consider the majority of the times where it requires a sacrifice, hinders someone's play, or just straight up fails, but those are constantly ignored too.[/quote]

Is losing a Pistol really that much of a sacrifice? Is losing a Winger really that much of a sacrifice if the Atomizer is unbanned, a move that you support?

[quote]Again, you could grab a clip of someone going on a headshotting spree or a Direct Hit spree, yet we know in the bigger picture those kinds of things are the exception not the norm. What it seems to come down to is that people are more resistant to change and dying to something new even if something that has been around for years would have beat them too.[/quote]

Agree. Remember when everyone refused to allow Powerjack because they were afraid that Pyro mids would destroy the game since Pyro is so much more powerful than a Scout or Soldier?
111
#111
20 Frags +
b4nnyTheory crafting perfect usage is not really a fair way to judge items.

Have you actually done any testing then? Because when we last tested shit like the vow or the cleaver both were fucking stupid with the cleaver giving scouts +20% more DPM on average.

I understand you want an open whitelist to show to valve or w/e but how about you fucking do something about it to prove yourself right other then just say "im right because i am b4nny"

Step the fuck up.

[quote=b4nny]Theory crafting perfect usage is not really a fair way to judge items.[/quote]

Have you actually done any testing then? Because when we last tested shit like the vow or the cleaver both were fucking stupid with the cleaver giving scouts +20% more DPM on average.

I understand you want an open whitelist to show to valve or w/e but how about you fucking do something about it to prove yourself right other then just say "im right because i am b4nny"

Step the fuck up.
112
#112
1 Frags +

people arent going to play 6s because of goofy unlocks being allowed the vast majority of people in public servers dont play tf2 40+ hrs/2 weeks, do not want to put the time in to play more seriously/are not interested in playing with stakes, and valve has provided very little positive updates in the past 4 years. why do this

people arent going to play 6s because of goofy unlocks being allowed the vast majority of people in public servers dont play tf2 40+ hrs/2 weeks, do not want to put the time in to play more seriously/are not interested in playing with stakes, and valve has provided very little positive updates in the past 4 years. why do this
113
#113
16 Frags +

I would love to see a contest be hosted again for these unlocks. Except this time, please have some sort of incentive for teams to try as hard as they can. It's kind of aggravating when I went to watch a stream of one of these 'tournaments' just to hear people giggling about as they're doing their own dumb things with unlocks. I may just be upset because when you watch something like this it truly runs the point home that a majority of this game was not meant to be competitive and when the competitive side of the game is meant to face these things it turns into the equivalent of a public gaming shitfest.

I may not have much but I will donate every key in my backpack for some sort of prizepool for a tourney like this. I would also advise anyone to donate what they can as well to help raise any incentive for top teams to join and try their hardest so we can actually get some final concrete answers. Also I would love for more than just EU teams to be the deciding factor for unlocks. Nothing against EU, but when you are making a GLOBAL whitelist it's kind of ridiculous that you only bring in one continent despite there at least still being NA and AU. All of these continents have varying playstyles and can also give some very solid feedback.

I would love to see a contest be hosted again for these unlocks. Except this time, please have some sort of incentive for teams to try as hard as they can. It's kind of aggravating when I went to watch a stream of one of these 'tournaments' just to hear people giggling about as they're doing their own dumb things with unlocks. I may just be upset because when you watch something like this it truly runs the point home that a majority of this game was not meant to be competitive and when the competitive side of the game is meant to face these things it turns into the equivalent of a public gaming shitfest.

I may not have much but I will donate every key in my backpack for some sort of prizepool for a tourney like this. I would also advise anyone to donate what they can as well to help raise any incentive for top teams to join and try their hardest so we can actually get some final concrete answers. Also I would love for more than just EU teams to be the deciding factor for unlocks. Nothing against EU, but when you are making a GLOBAL whitelist it's kind of ridiculous that you only bring in one continent despite there at least still being NA and AU. All of these continents have varying playstyles and can also give some very solid feedback.
114
#114
8 Frags +
NurseyI would love to see a contest be hosted again for these unlocks. Except this time, please have some sort of incentive for teams to try as hard as they can. It's kind of aggravating when I went to watch a stream of one of these 'tournaments' just to hear people giggling about as they're doing their own dumb things with unlocks. I may just be upset because when you watch something like this it truly runs the point home that a majority of this game was not meant to be competitive and when the competitive side of the game is meant to face these things it turns into the equivalent of a public gaming shitfest.

I may not have much but I will donate every key in my backpack for some sort of prizepool for a tourney like this. I would also advise anyone to donate what they can as well to help raise any incentive for top teams to join and try their hardest so we can actually get some final concrete answers. Also I would love for more than just EU teams to be the deciding factor for unlocks. Nothing against EU, but when you are making a GLOBAL whitelist it's kind of ridiculous that you only bring in one continent despite there at least still being NA and AU. All of these continents have varying playstyles and can also give some very solid feedback.

Imo keep away from keys and shit. How many top level players actually care about keys or tf2 econ memes? We need to get something that actually matters like hard $ or peripherals of some kind.

[quote=Nursey]I would love to see a contest be hosted again for these unlocks. Except this time, please have some sort of incentive for teams to try as hard as they can. It's kind of aggravating when I went to watch a stream of one of these 'tournaments' just to hear people giggling about as they're doing their own dumb things with unlocks. I may just be upset because when you watch something like this it truly runs the point home that a majority of this game was not meant to be competitive and when the competitive side of the game is meant to face these things it turns into the equivalent of a public gaming shitfest.

I may not have much but I will donate every key in my backpack for some sort of prizepool for a tourney like this. I would also advise anyone to donate what they can as well to help raise any incentive for top teams to join and try their hardest so we can actually get some final concrete answers. Also I would love for more than just EU teams to be the deciding factor for unlocks. Nothing against EU, but when you are making a GLOBAL whitelist it's kind of ridiculous that you only bring in one continent despite there at least still being NA and AU. All of these continents have varying playstyles and can also give some very solid feedback.[/quote]


Imo keep away from keys and shit. How many top level players actually care about keys or tf2 econ memes? We need to get something that actually matters like hard $ or peripherals of some kind.
115
#115
-2 Frags +
eddie_calderonpeople arent going to play 6s because of goofy unlocks being allowed the vast majority of people in public servers dont play tf2 40+ hrs/2 weeks, do not want to put the time in to play more seriously/are not interested in playing with stakes, and valve has provided very little positive updates in the past 4 years. why do this

Competitive TF2 is a 1 hour / week investment minimum.

[quote=eddie_calderon]people arent going to play 6s because of goofy unlocks being allowed the vast majority of people in public servers dont play tf2 40+ hrs/2 weeks, do not want to put the time in to play more seriously/are not interested in playing with stakes, and valve has provided very little positive updates in the past 4 years. why do this[/quote]

Competitive TF2 is a 1 hour / week investment minimum.
116
#116
20 Frags +
Aoshi
  • B.A.S.E Jumper
  • Bonk! Atomic Punch
  • Sandman

i wanted to play again next season, but definitely not if any of those weapons are allowed lol

[quote=Aoshi]
[list]
[*]B.A.S.E Jumper
[*]Bonk! Atomic Punch
[*]Sandman
[/list]
[/quote]

i wanted to play again next season, but definitely not if any of those weapons are allowed lol
117
#117
-6 Frags +

can we just shut the fuck up and stop trying to suck the dicks of dave riller and the rest of the tf2 devs by implementing this awful fucking whitelist?

everyone needs to face facts:
- no one at valve gives a single shit about competitive and only do competitive things so they can give candy to the crying baby
- our game means absolutely nothing to them other than a side hustle considering how profitable both csgo and dota 2 are
- valve will stick to their guns and keep appeasing the pubbers and traders because that’s where they make their money

anyone who doesn’t believe those facts is undeniably and sadly delusional and should not make the entire GLOBAL competitive tf2 community suffer because they’re still clinging to hope that valve gives one single fuck about competitive

and if you want to prove me wrong, ask the devs yourself, see how many of them actually care about competitive tf2

if people like b4nny legitimately think this is what valve wants in order to accept competitive tf2, then quit leaving the community in the dark, go straight to valve, and tell them to give you straight answers

no more open ended answers

no more bullshit

can we just shut the fuck up and stop trying to suck the dicks of dave riller and the rest of the tf2 devs by implementing this awful fucking whitelist?

everyone needs to face facts:
- no one at valve gives a single shit about competitive and only do competitive things so they can give candy to the crying baby
- our game means absolutely nothing to them other than a side hustle considering how profitable both csgo and dota 2 are
- valve will stick to their guns and keep appeasing the pubbers and traders because that’s where they make their money

anyone who doesn’t believe those facts is undeniably and sadly delusional and should not make the entire GLOBAL competitive tf2 community suffer because they’re still clinging to hope that valve gives one single fuck about competitive

and if you want to prove me wrong, ask the devs yourself, see how many of them actually care about competitive tf2

if people like b4nny legitimately think this is what valve wants in order to accept competitive tf2, then quit leaving the community in the dark, go straight to valve, and tell them to give you straight answers

no more open ended answers

no more bullshit
118
#118
-9 Frags +

Burgers be gone.

Burgers be gone.
119
#119
7 Frags +
viper- no one at valve gives a single shit about competitive and only do competitive things so they can give candy to the crying baby

so you're saying the balance change blog was aimed at pubbers and was just for them all this time?

[quote=viper]
- no one at valve gives a single shit about competitive and only do competitive things so they can give candy to the crying baby
[/quote]
so you're saying the balance change blog was aimed at pubbers and was just for them all this time?
120
#120
4 Frags +

so is the point of the whitelist being as open as possible to appease some imagined demographic of casual players who would be interested in 6v6 if only we did x y and z to make it slightly closer aesthetically to the casual game? why focus on that rather than make sure people who are already aware and interested get involved and stick around? if i can do my own speculation, i'd propose that casual tf2 is so different from any possible serious competitive format that few people who are interested in playing a competitive game are going to be drawn into 6v6 by it being a tiny bit more similar to casual play, especially as long as people are still playing highlander. i personally am not interested in learning the basics and then having to deal with endless possible combinations of goofy-ass weapons that nobody uses most of the time anyway except to dick around. i'm sure these points have been made many times in the past, just my two cents...

so is the point of the whitelist being as open as possible to appease some imagined demographic of casual players who would be interested in 6v6 if only we did x y and z to make it slightly closer aesthetically to the casual game? why focus on that rather than make sure people who are already aware and interested get involved and stick around? if i can do my own speculation, i'd propose that casual tf2 is so different from any possible serious competitive format that few people who are interested in playing a competitive game are going to be drawn into 6v6 by it being a tiny bit more similar to casual play, especially as long as people are still playing highlander. i personally am not interested in learning the basics and then having to deal with endless possible combinations of goofy-ass weapons that nobody uses most of the time anyway except to dick around. i'm sure these points have been made many times in the past, just my two cents...
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