https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R8f-lYFMIYM
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Mr Slin - Potential Fixes for 5cp in Comp TF2
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i havent watched the video yet but i would like to get all the slinsults out of the way of an actual conversation:
why does this idiot who tried to unban the quickfix still think he has relevance
slinvite haha
slin is bad an he shoudl feel bad
this video is shit and full of shit ideas
why does this idiot who tried to unban the atomizer still think he has relevance
Show Content
i almost forgot: give slin a timer
okay but now that im watching it the literal video quality is actually garbage. both screen and occasional audio tears?
And maybe I'm misunderstanding, but this just seems like a big RNG for getting teams to push. If both teams are trying to farm the same NPC, I'm just seeing this turn into one big clusterfuck. Trying to kill each other, trying to kill the NPC... not to mention how one team could farm the guy down to 50 hp, the other team decides to push and manages to get the very last rocket on the guy and gets the buff. I don't like watching MOBAs, I don't know why it works there, but in TF2 it just seems like it would be a huge source of frustration more than anything.
i havent watched the video yet but i would like to get all the slinsults out of the way of an actual conversation:
[i]why does this idiot who tried to unban the quickfix still think he has relevance[/i]
[i]slinvite haha[/i]
[i]slin is bad an he shoudl feel bad[/i]
[i]this video is shit and full of shit ideas[/i]
[i]why does this idiot who tried to unban the atomizer still think he has relevance[/i]
[spoiler]i almost forgot: give slin a timer[/spoiler]
okay but now that im watching it the literal video quality is actually garbage. both screen and occasional audio tears?
And maybe I'm misunderstanding, but this just seems like a big RNG for getting teams to push. If both teams are trying to farm the same NPC, I'm just seeing this turn into one big clusterfuck. Trying to kill each other, trying to kill the NPC... not to mention how one team could farm the guy down to 50 hp, the other team decides to push and manages to get the very last rocket on the guy and gets the buff. I don't like watching MOBAs, I don't know why it works there, but in TF2 it just seems like it would be a huge source of frustration more than anything.
[i]why does this idiot who tried to unban the quickfix still think he has relevance[/i]
[i]slinvite haha[/i]
[i]slin is bad an he shoudl feel bad[/i]
[i]this video is shit and full of shit ideas[/i]
[i]why does this idiot who tried to unban the atomizer still think he has relevance[/i]
[spoiler]i almost forgot: give slin a timer[/spoiler]
okay but now that im watching it the literal video quality is actually garbage. both screen and occasional audio tears?
And maybe I'm misunderstanding, but this just seems like a big RNG for getting teams to push. If both teams are trying to farm the same NPC, I'm just seeing this turn into one big clusterfuck. Trying to kill each other, trying to kill the NPC... not to mention how one team could farm the guy down to 50 hp, the other team decides to push and manages to get the very last rocket on the guy and gets the buff. I don't like watching MOBAs, I don't know why it works there, but in TF2 it just seems like it would be a huge source of frustration more than anything.
it's an unconventional idea, though it is interesting and it would potentially fix some problems 5cp has. it would also add something new to the game and make it enjoyable to watch/play again and possibly slightly change the meta. i doubt anyone would ever actually do something like this, though it would definitely be interesting to see.
it's an unconventional idea, though it is interesting and it would potentially fix some problems 5cp has. it would also add something new to the game and make it enjoyable to watch/play again and possibly slightly change the meta. i doubt anyone would ever actually do something like this, though it would definitely be interesting to see.
A neutral objective that both teams would want to contest at any point of time is a pretty good idea. Perhaps not a giant robo Heavy, but a flag or (yet another) cp to capture?
A neutral objective that both teams would want to contest at any point of time is a pretty good idea. Perhaps not a giant robo Heavy, but a flag or (yet another) cp to capture?
Menachemi havent watched the video yet
Menachemthis video is shit and full of shit ideas
XD
[quote=Menachem]i havent watched the video yet[/quote]
[quote=Menachem][i]this video is shit and full of shit ideas[/i][/quote]
XD
[quote=Menachem][i]this video is shit and full of shit ideas[/i][/quote]
XD
The gist of his solution to stalemates:
"The shockclock timer ticks down to 0, and instead of having another midfight, what happens is two ramps like descend down from heavens. The ramps come down and then the teams can choose to walk up the ramps, and at the top of the ramp is a heavy. It's like a mechanical heavy, like Mann vs Machine, cuz I'm trying to be thematically correct for TF2 - but you have this like robot heavy at the top of the ramp, and it's a pretty strong heavy but it's 1v1able, like barely, just barely 1v1able like if you're trying really hard to -- eh maybe like later in the game -- eh maybe it's like 2v1able or 3v1able or something like that. So it requires your team to go up there and contest that neutral objective. If you don't do it, well, that heavy is either going to, either you kill the heavy and it gives you like a huge buff, like crits or something, or it gives you -- it'll like drop intel like Roshan, and suddenly your team has this huge buff."
The gist of his solution to stalemates:
"The shockclock timer ticks down to 0, and instead of having another midfight, what happens is two ramps like descend down from heavens. The ramps come down and then the teams can choose to walk up the ramps, and at the top of the ramp is a heavy. It's like a mechanical heavy, like Mann vs Machine, cuz I'm trying to be thematically correct for TF2 - but you have this like robot heavy at the top of the ramp, and it's a pretty strong heavy but it's 1v1able, like barely, just barely 1v1able like if you're trying really hard to -- eh maybe like later in the game -- eh maybe it's like 2v1able or 3v1able or something like that. So it requires your team to go up there and contest that neutral objective. If you don't do it, well, that heavy is either going to, either you kill the heavy and it gives you like a huge buff, like crits or something, or it gives you -- it'll like drop intel like Roshan, and suddenly your team has this huge buff."
"The shockclock timer ticks down to 0, and instead of having another midfight, what happens is two ramps like descend down from heavens. The ramps come down and then the teams can choose to walk up the ramps, and at the top of the ramp is a heavy. It's like a mechanical heavy, like Mann vs Machine, cuz I'm trying to be thematically correct for TF2 - but you have this like robot heavy at the top of the ramp, and it's a pretty strong heavy but it's 1v1able, like barely, just barely 1v1able like if you're trying really hard to -- eh maybe like later in the game -- eh maybe it's like 2v1able or 3v1able or something like that. So it requires your team to go up there and contest that neutral objective. If you don't do it, well, that heavy is either going to, either you kill the heavy and it gives you like a huge buff, like crits or something, or it gives you -- it'll like drop intel like Roshan, and suddenly your team has this huge buff."
Collaide
me i would like to get all the slinsults out of the way of an actual conversation
was bad joke dingus
[quote=Collaide][/quote]
[quote=me] i would like to get all the slinsults out of the way of an actual conversation[/quote]
was bad joke dingus
[quote=me] i would like to get all the slinsults out of the way of an actual conversation[/quote]
was bad joke dingus
Polar-The gist of his solution to stalemates:
"The shockclock timer ticks down to 0, and instead of having another midfight, what happens is two ramps like descend down from heavens. The ramps come down and then the teams can choose to walk up the ramps, and at the top of the ramp is a heavy. It's like a mechanical heavy, like Mann vs Machine, cuz I'm trying to be thematically correct for TF2 - but you have this like robot heavy at the top of the ramp, and it's a pretty strong heavy but it's 1v1able, like barely, just barely 1v1able like if you're trying really hard to -- eh maybe like later in the game -- eh maybe it's like 2v1able or 3v1able or something like that. So it requires your team to go up there and contest that neutral objective. If you don't do it, well, that heavy is either going to, either you kill the heavy and it gives you like a huge buff, like crits or something, or it gives you -- it'll like drop intel like Roshan, and suddenly your team has this huge buff."
^Yeah I'm sorry I gotta be a bit rude but this is honestly the stupidest thing I've heard anyone come up with with regards to solving the stalemate problem, and I'd rather play 6s at it's slowest than have this ridiculous idea ruin whatever flow and momentum there is left in the game.
Edit: I've said this in a different thread, but I'll repeat here just because I feel this idea actually tackles the root of the problem instead of adding unnecessary gimmicks that only make things more confusing: The reason smart teams won't push is because the chances of failing a push are greater than the chances of failing a hold. The stalemate issue will be solved when the chances of failing a hold are greater than the chances of failing a push. A lot of this is in the hands of how Valve balance and design each class' statistics and mechanics, but as a community we can also do things to help our gamemode by making defending much harder to do, for example:
Show Content
banning heavy, engi and banning unlocks that make defending easier.
[quote=Polar-]The gist of his solution to stalemates:
"The shockclock timer ticks down to 0, and instead of having another midfight, what happens is two ramps like descend down from heavens. The ramps come down and then the teams can choose to walk up the ramps, and at the top of the ramp is a heavy. It's like a mechanical heavy, like Mann vs Machine, cuz I'm trying to be thematically correct for TF2 - but you have this like robot heavy at the top of the ramp, and it's a pretty strong heavy but it's 1v1able, like barely, just barely 1v1able like if you're trying really hard to -- eh maybe like later in the game -- eh maybe it's like 2v1able or 3v1able or something like that. So it requires your team to go up there and contest that neutral objective. If you don't do it, well, that heavy is either going to, either you kill the heavy and it gives you like a huge buff, like crits or something, or it gives you -- it'll like drop intel like Roshan, and suddenly your team has this huge buff."[/quote]
^Yeah I'm sorry I gotta be a bit rude but this is honestly the stupidest thing I've heard anyone come up with with regards to solving the stalemate problem, and I'd rather play 6s at it's slowest than have this ridiculous idea ruin whatever flow and momentum there is left in the game.
Edit: I've said this in a different thread, but I'll repeat here just because I feel this idea actually tackles the root of the problem instead of adding unnecessary gimmicks that only make things more confusing: The reason smart teams won't push is because the chances of failing a push are greater than the chances of failing a hold. The stalemate issue will be solved when the chances of failing a hold are greater than the chances of failing a push. A lot of this is in the hands of how Valve balance and design each class' statistics and mechanics, but as a community we can also do things to help our gamemode by making defending much harder to do, for example: [spoiler]banning heavy, engi and banning unlocks that make defending easier. [/spoiler]
"The shockclock timer ticks down to 0, and instead of having another midfight, what happens is two ramps like descend down from heavens. The ramps come down and then the teams can choose to walk up the ramps, and at the top of the ramp is a heavy. It's like a mechanical heavy, like Mann vs Machine, cuz I'm trying to be thematically correct for TF2 - but you have this like robot heavy at the top of the ramp, and it's a pretty strong heavy but it's 1v1able, like barely, just barely 1v1able like if you're trying really hard to -- eh maybe like later in the game -- eh maybe it's like 2v1able or 3v1able or something like that. So it requires your team to go up there and contest that neutral objective. If you don't do it, well, that heavy is either going to, either you kill the heavy and it gives you like a huge buff, like crits or something, or it gives you -- it'll like drop intel like Roshan, and suddenly your team has this huge buff."[/quote]
^Yeah I'm sorry I gotta be a bit rude but this is honestly the stupidest thing I've heard anyone come up with with regards to solving the stalemate problem, and I'd rather play 6s at it's slowest than have this ridiculous idea ruin whatever flow and momentum there is left in the game.
Edit: I've said this in a different thread, but I'll repeat here just because I feel this idea actually tackles the root of the problem instead of adding unnecessary gimmicks that only make things more confusing: The reason smart teams won't push is because the chances of failing a push are greater than the chances of failing a hold. The stalemate issue will be solved when the chances of failing a hold are greater than the chances of failing a push. A lot of this is in the hands of how Valve balance and design each class' statistics and mechanics, but as a community we can also do things to help our gamemode by making defending much harder to do, for example: [spoiler]banning heavy, engi and banning unlocks that make defending easier. [/spoiler]
i mean you didn't watch the video and you're calling the idea stupid. plus it wasn't meant to be a very serious solution, it's just something that people haven't thought of yet, i was trying to brainstorm and think outside the box. it's obviously a dumb idea.
but i got it from league of legends / dota, where teams at the end of the game would turtle up in their bases under their towers so that they don't lose. in mobas the developers use neutral objectives to encourage teams to leave their bases. if you don't leave your base to contest the neutral objective, the neutral objective rewards a buff that punishes you. that's the idea for tf2, anyways. i don't think this paragraph really does the idea justice but eh.
i'm really just trying to inspire someone to come up with an actually good solution based off of my dumb idea.
i mean you didn't watch the video and you're calling the idea stupid. plus it wasn't meant to be a very serious solution, it's just something that people haven't thought of yet, i was trying to brainstorm and think outside the box. it's obviously a dumb idea.
but i got it from league of legends / dota, where teams at the end of the game would turtle up in their bases under their towers so that they don't lose. in mobas the developers use neutral objectives to encourage teams to leave their bases. if you don't leave your base to contest the neutral objective, the neutral objective rewards a buff that punishes you. that's the idea for tf2, anyways. i don't think this paragraph really does the idea justice but eh.
i'm really just trying to inspire someone to come up with an actually good solution based off of my dumb idea.
but i got it from league of legends / dota, where teams at the end of the game would turtle up in their bases under their towers so that they don't lose. in mobas the developers use neutral objectives to encourage teams to leave their bases. if you don't leave your base to contest the neutral objective, the neutral objective rewards a buff that punishes you. that's the idea for tf2, anyways. i don't think this paragraph really does the idea justice but eh.
i'm really just trying to inspire someone to come up with an actually good solution based off of my dumb idea.
Building on the idea of a neutral objective at the end of the timer and more control points you could play a 5/7cp hybrid.
http://i.imgur.com/LzG0PcT.png
So in this picture you would play the 5cp until timer runs out, when it runs out the points you own are locked and the inbetween objective becomes neutral to play over.
http://i.imgur.com/vhgQcy6.png
In this case the stalemate was between mid and 2nd so the routes between 2nd and mid shut down by means of shutters and stuff leaving only minimal flank routes between them and new routes open up between mid and 2.5 and 2nd and 2.5. Thus creating a mid like fight between teams over a neutral point but still leaving the team that initially capped mid with the advantage of having more points in their favour.
The position of the 2.5 point should be such that it gives advantage pushes both onto 2nd and mid forcing both teams to fight over it or be in a position to lose the point that they own.
This inbetween point could also be used for stalemates on last.
http://i.imgur.com/nnb3GYY.png
Working exactly the same as it did on 2nd, provides some big advantage push either onto last or out of last if capped. This could even be extrapolated to 9cp with a .5cp between each normal 5cp objective.
Having the .5cps would allow for the clock to be much shorter due to the fact that when it runs out neither team gains or loses an advantage in terms of capture points it just forces a team fight.
Building on the idea of a neutral objective at the end of the timer and more control points you could play a 5/7cp hybrid.
[img]http://i.imgur.com/LzG0PcT.png[/img]
So in this picture you would play the 5cp until timer runs out, when it runs out the points you own are locked and the inbetween objective becomes neutral to play over.
[img]http://i.imgur.com/vhgQcy6.png[/img]
In this case the stalemate was between mid and 2nd so the routes between 2nd and mid shut down by means of shutters and stuff leaving only minimal flank routes between them and new routes open up between mid and 2.5 and 2nd and 2.5. Thus creating a mid like fight between teams over a neutral point but still leaving the team that initially capped mid with the advantage of having more points in their favour.
The position of the 2.5 point should be such that it gives advantage pushes both onto 2nd and mid forcing both teams to fight over it or be in a position to lose the point that they own.
This inbetween point could also be used for stalemates on last.
[img]http://i.imgur.com/nnb3GYY.png[/img]
Working exactly the same as it did on 2nd, provides some big advantage push either onto last or out of last if capped. This could even be extrapolated to 9cp with a .5cp between each normal 5cp objective.
Having the .5cps would allow for the clock to be much shorter due to the fact that when it runs out neither team gains or loses an advantage in terms of capture points it just forces a team fight.
[img]http://i.imgur.com/LzG0PcT.png[/img]
So in this picture you would play the 5cp until timer runs out, when it runs out the points you own are locked and the inbetween objective becomes neutral to play over.
[img]http://i.imgur.com/vhgQcy6.png[/img]
In this case the stalemate was between mid and 2nd so the routes between 2nd and mid shut down by means of shutters and stuff leaving only minimal flank routes between them and new routes open up between mid and 2.5 and 2nd and 2.5. Thus creating a mid like fight between teams over a neutral point but still leaving the team that initially capped mid with the advantage of having more points in their favour.
The position of the 2.5 point should be such that it gives advantage pushes both onto 2nd and mid forcing both teams to fight over it or be in a position to lose the point that they own.
This inbetween point could also be used for stalemates on last.
[img]http://i.imgur.com/nnb3GYY.png[/img]
Working exactly the same as it did on 2nd, provides some big advantage push either onto last or out of last if capped. This could even be extrapolated to 9cp with a .5cp between each normal 5cp objective.
Having the .5cps would allow for the clock to be much shorter due to the fact that when it runs out neither team gains or loses an advantage in terms of capture points it just forces a team fight.
MenachemCollaideme i would like to get all the slinsults out of the way of an actual conversationwas bad joke dingus
Wouldn't suprise me if it wasn't dingus
[quote=Menachem][quote=Collaide][/quote]
[quote=me] i would like to get all the slinsults out of the way of an actual conversation[/quote]
was bad joke dingus[/quote]
Wouldn't suprise me if it wasn't dingus
[quote=me] i would like to get all the slinsults out of the way of an actual conversation[/quote]
was bad joke dingus[/quote]
Wouldn't suprise me if it wasn't dingus
THEBILLDOZERMenachem did you type RNG generator?
i fixed it like 30 seconds ago
[quote=THEBILLDOZER]Menachem did you type RNG generator?[/quote]
i fixed it like 30 seconds ago
i fixed it like 30 seconds ago
why just dont make it so when the timer reaches 0, the team with more control points captured wins the round. i dont see why the game has to restart with both teams fighting for mid again.
why just dont make it so when the timer reaches 0, the team with more control points captured wins the round. i dont see why the game has to restart with both teams fighting for mid again.
cuz then stalling out the timer would be an even better idea for the team in control. teams holding last already have trouble initiating since if they get fucked they lose the round instead of a point.
cuz then stalling out the timer would be an even better idea for the team in control. teams holding last already have trouble initiating since if they get fucked they lose the round instead of a point.
Cause then the team holding middle has even more incentive to park the bus.
Cause then the team holding middle has even more incentive to park the bus.
PheaaBuilding on the idea of a neutral objective at the end of the timer and more control points you could play a 5/7cp hybrid.
http://i.imgur.com/LzG0PcT.png
So in this picture you would play the 5cp until timer runs out, when it runs out the points you own are locked and the inbetween objective becomes neutral to play over.
http://i.imgur.com/vhgQcy6.png
In this case the stalemate was between mid and 2nd so the routes between 2nd and mid shut down by means of shutters and stuff leaving only minimal flank routes between them and new routes open up between mid and 2.5 and 2nd and 2.5. Thus creating a mid like fight between teams over a neutral point but still leaving the team that initially capped mid with the advantage of having more points in their favour.
The position of the 2.5 point should be such that it gives advantage pushes both onto 2nd and mid forcing both teams to fight over it or be in a position to lose the point that they own.
This inbetween point could also be used for stalemates on last.
http://i.imgur.com/nnb3GYY.png
Working exactly the same as it did on 2nd, provides some big advantage push either onto last or out of last if capped. This could even be extrapolated to 9cp with a .5cp between each normal 5cp objective.
Having the .5cps would allow for the clock to be much shorter due to the fact that when it runs out neither team gains or loses an advantage in terms of capture points it just forces a team fight.
This actually seems like a really good system for forcing fights. Someone needs to make this a map and I'd totally like to try it out.
[quote=Pheaa]Building on the idea of a neutral objective at the end of the timer and more control points you could play a 5/7cp hybrid.
[img]http://i.imgur.com/LzG0PcT.png[/img]
So in this picture you would play the 5cp until timer runs out, when it runs out the points you own are locked and the inbetween objective becomes neutral to play over.
[img]http://i.imgur.com/vhgQcy6.png[/img]
In this case the stalemate was between mid and 2nd so the routes between 2nd and mid shut down by means of shutters and stuff leaving only minimal flank routes between them and new routes open up between mid and 2.5 and 2nd and 2.5. Thus creating a mid like fight between teams over a neutral point but still leaving the team that initially capped mid with the advantage of having more points in their favour.
The position of the 2.5 point should be such that it gives advantage pushes both onto 2nd and mid forcing both teams to fight over it or be in a position to lose the point that they own.
This inbetween point could also be used for stalemates on last.
[img]http://i.imgur.com/nnb3GYY.png[/img]
Working exactly the same as it did on 2nd, provides some big advantage push either onto last or out of last if capped. This could even be extrapolated to 9cp with a .5cp between each normal 5cp objective.
Having the .5cps would allow for the clock to be much shorter due to the fact that when it runs out neither team gains or loses an advantage in terms of capture points it just forces a team fight.[/quote]
This actually seems like a really good system for forcing fights. Someone needs to make this a map and I'd totally like to try it out.
[img]http://i.imgur.com/LzG0PcT.png[/img]
So in this picture you would play the 5cp until timer runs out, when it runs out the points you own are locked and the inbetween objective becomes neutral to play over.
[img]http://i.imgur.com/vhgQcy6.png[/img]
In this case the stalemate was between mid and 2nd so the routes between 2nd and mid shut down by means of shutters and stuff leaving only minimal flank routes between them and new routes open up between mid and 2.5 and 2nd and 2.5. Thus creating a mid like fight between teams over a neutral point but still leaving the team that initially capped mid with the advantage of having more points in their favour.
The position of the 2.5 point should be such that it gives advantage pushes both onto 2nd and mid forcing both teams to fight over it or be in a position to lose the point that they own.
This inbetween point could also be used for stalemates on last.
[img]http://i.imgur.com/nnb3GYY.png[/img]
Working exactly the same as it did on 2nd, provides some big advantage push either onto last or out of last if capped. This could even be extrapolated to 9cp with a .5cp between each normal 5cp objective.
Having the .5cps would allow for the clock to be much shorter due to the fact that when it runs out neither team gains or loses an advantage in terms of capture points it just forces a team fight.[/quote]
This actually seems like a really good system for forcing fights. Someone needs to make this a map and I'd totally like to try it out.
I think phea's suggestion would do a lot to alleviate stalemates tho it might be a cp_steel situation where people get incredibly confused with all the entrances that open/close and in very specific circumstances. Also in that scenario are teams on last going to risk doing "another midfight" on point 2.5 where if they wipe the other team will cap their last.
I think the idea of a neutral objective forcing a fight is a cool one and possibly the simplest way to do this would be to create a neutral pickup similar to something like the quad damage. You could make it spawn with a certain amount of time left on the roundtimer and have it give a player a certain number of seconds of crits etc.
If you make pickups like these spawn in the right positions and with the right timings then you can have them dictate the gameplay and teams would be able to play around them without making things seem totally unfair. They also make sense as pickups are a thing that already exist in the mannpower mode (even though that mode is fucking terrible) so probably wouldnt be too difficult to add into the existing game.
e.g. picture the scenario that 2 teams are stalemated between mid and 2nd on badlands- a pickup that could win or lose a fight spawns at 6 minutes left on the roundtimer in badlands house in the area close to resup/haunter. Teams can rotate players to get this pickup but it puts players from both teams in a compromising position to play for this, and allows the enemy team space to make a push or contest the players playing for the pickup.
I think phea's suggestion would do a lot to alleviate stalemates tho it might be a cp_steel situation where people get incredibly confused with all the entrances that open/close and in very specific circumstances. Also in that scenario are teams on last going to risk doing "another midfight" on point 2.5 where if they wipe the other team will cap their last.
I think the idea of a neutral objective forcing a fight is a cool one and possibly the simplest way to do this would be to create a neutral pickup similar to something like the quad damage. You could make it spawn with a certain amount of time left on the roundtimer and have it give a player a certain number of seconds of crits etc.
If you make pickups like these spawn in the right positions and with the right timings then you can have them dictate the gameplay and teams would be able to play around them without making things seem totally unfair. They also make sense as pickups are a thing that already exist in the mannpower mode (even though that mode is fucking terrible) so probably wouldnt be too difficult to add into the existing game.
e.g. picture the scenario that 2 teams are stalemated between mid and 2nd on badlands- a pickup that could win or lose a fight spawns at 6 minutes left on the roundtimer in badlands house in the area close to resup/haunter. Teams can rotate players to get this pickup but it puts players from both teams in a compromising position to play for this, and allows the enemy team space to make a push or contest the players playing for the pickup.
I think the idea of a neutral objective forcing a fight is a cool one and possibly the simplest way to do this would be to create a neutral pickup similar to something like the quad damage. You could make it spawn with a certain amount of time left on the roundtimer and have it give a player a certain number of seconds of crits etc.
If you make pickups like these spawn in the right positions and with the right timings then you can have them dictate the gameplay and teams would be able to play around them without making things seem totally unfair. They also make sense as pickups are a thing that already exist in the mannpower mode (even though that mode is fucking terrible) so probably wouldnt be too difficult to add into the existing game.
e.g. picture the scenario that 2 teams are stalemated between mid and 2nd on badlands- a pickup that could win or lose a fight spawns at 6 minutes left on the roundtimer in badlands house in the area close to resup/haunter. Teams can rotate players to get this pickup but it puts players from both teams in a compromising position to play for this, and allows the enemy team space to make a push or contest the players playing for the pickup.
Make an invasion beam instead of a ramp... problem solved :D
Make an invasion beam instead of a ramp... problem solved :D
Really good idea from Slin, but the obvious flaw will be that it will create the dynamic of splitting the team, which didn't work out in attack/defense as you all know, and less than 6 people up on last is a valid info for an attacking team to push since this game is so fast.
Now this is very good.
Pheaa
But are the doors to 2.5 going to be shut during normal time? Should we worry that the team in control can always preemptively setup there in continue the stalemate? And how would you shut any open alley in second/mid or on the way to 2.5?
Really good idea from Slin, but the obvious flaw will be that it will create the dynamic of splitting the team, which didn't work out in attack/defense as you all know, and less than 6 people up on last is a valid info for an attacking team to push since this game is so fast.
Now this is very good.
[quote=Pheaa][/quote]
But are the doors to 2.5 going to be shut during normal time? Should we worry that the team in control can always preemptively setup there in continue the stalemate? And how would you shut any open alley in second/mid or on the way to 2.5?
Now this is very good.
[quote=Pheaa][/quote]
But are the doors to 2.5 going to be shut during normal time? Should we worry that the team in control can always preemptively setup there in continue the stalemate? And how would you shut any open alley in second/mid or on the way to 2.5?
I agree we need more 7cp maps like granary abortion. For real though aside from a few maps being aids to push out of last on or usually result in stalemates in high level matches (metal, granary, sunshine last) I don't think anybody would argue that 5cp is inherently flawed and NEEDS to be fixed. Sure, I like viaduct and would be down to play more than one week of koth but playing process and gullywash and shit I've never once thought to myself, wow this match is so stalematey, if only we didn't have to play this flawed game mode of 5cp (though ive definitely had similar thoughts about playing shit maps like metalworks because it is a giant stalemate). I feel like the only people who have issues with 5cp are the spectators and imo tf2 is a lot better of a game to play than it is to watch and I don't think we should cater to some dude sitting in spec who gets bored and can't think of any more words to spew out of his mouth hole to fill the time during a stalemate.
I agree we need more 7cp maps like granary abortion. For real though aside from a few maps being aids to push out of last on or usually result in stalemates in high level matches (metal, granary, sunshine last) I don't think anybody would argue that 5cp is inherently flawed and NEEDS to be fixed. Sure, I like viaduct and would be down to play more than one week of koth but playing process and gullywash and shit I've never once thought to myself, wow this match is so stalematey, if only we didn't have to play this flawed game mode of 5cp (though ive definitely had similar thoughts about playing shit maps like metalworks because it is a giant stalemate). I feel like the only people who have issues with 5cp are the spectators and imo tf2 is a lot better of a game to play than it is to watch and I don't think we should cater to some dude sitting in spec who gets bored and can't think of any more words to spew out of his mouth hole to fill the time during a stalemate.
My brainstorm process last time i doodled in hammer was at first - rotational 3-4-5 cp. With round points earned on every lap or every point. But the mid fights are too fun and snowball will be too strong. Then maybe a rotational cp with a point at the center and neutral timer to it? But yet again there is koth_ already. Maybe 2 cp koth with locked/unlocked points after the cap? Maybe give each point on 5cp two cap points like right next to each other so that they're always refightable which is essentialy Slin's 13cp but what's the point of uber advantage earned on mid then?
idk even in Unreal Tournament with all it's hybrid 10cp's battle royale maps these points resembled some kind of shootable advantage
Slin is right, players need to have some second option to worry about. So my proposition for a game is still to play with more than one uber-ult in it aka buff the conch. Or just make a map with better crossfire options.
My brainstorm process last time i doodled in hammer was at first - rotational 3-4-5 cp. With round points earned on every lap or every point. But the mid fights are too fun and snowball will be too strong. Then maybe a rotational cp with a point at the center and neutral timer to it? But yet again there is koth_ already. Maybe 2 cp koth with locked/unlocked points after the cap? Maybe give each point on 5cp two cap points like right next to each other so that they're always refightable which is essentialy Slin's 13cp but what's the point of uber advantage earned on mid then?
idk even in Unreal Tournament with all it's hybrid 10cp's battle royale maps these points resembled some kind of shootable advantage
Slin is right, players need to have some second option to worry about. So my proposition for a game is still to play with more than one uber-ult in it aka buff the conch. Or just make a map with better crossfire options.
idk even in Unreal Tournament with all it's hybrid 10cp's battle royale maps these points resembled some kind of shootable advantage
Slin is right, players need to have some second option to worry about. So my proposition for a game is still to play with more than one uber-ult in it aka buff the conch. Or just make a map with better crossfire options.
Changes have to stop moving in a defensive direction. Air stickies are worse so demomen are worse going forward. There are more healing and defensive options because we've unbanned the unlocks. These incremental changes all add up, large or bizarre changes aren't needed.
Weapons need to be made better in attacking situations to encourage and reward players for getting into attacking situations.
Maps could do with making entry into points easier so ubers don't get popped so early for the attackers and low risk holds on points could be made riskier.
Methods of disrupting the uber cycle could be made easier as uber asymmetry helps aggression.
Make Kritz viable.
5cp isn't broken, it's like Soccer was 30 years ago before changes were made to encourage more attacking play.
Changes have to stop moving in a defensive direction. Air stickies are worse so demomen are worse going forward. There are more healing and defensive options because we've unbanned the unlocks. These incremental changes all add up, large or bizarre changes aren't needed.
Weapons need to be made better in attacking situations to encourage and reward players for getting into attacking situations.
Maps could do with making entry into points easier so ubers don't get popped so early for the attackers and low risk holds on points could be made riskier.
Methods of disrupting the uber cycle could be made easier as uber asymmetry helps aggression.
Make Kritz viable.
5cp isn't broken, it's like Soccer was 30 years ago before changes were made to encourage more attacking play.
Weapons need to be made better in attacking situations to encourage and reward players for getting into attacking situations.
Maps could do with making entry into points easier so ubers don't get popped so early for the attackers and low risk holds on points could be made riskier.
Methods of disrupting the uber cycle could be made easier as uber asymmetry helps aggression.
Make Kritz viable.
5cp isn't broken, it's like Soccer was 30 years ago before changes were made to encourage more attacking play.
What about some neutral objectives that give a global buff to your team, that helps you push? Like decreased spawn times or something. Not something just 1 player on your team gets like Quake's quad damage and neither something totally op like (mini) crits for your whole team.
What about some neutral objectives that give a global buff to your team, that helps you push? Like decreased spawn times or something. Not something just 1 player on your team gets like Quake's quad damage and neither something totally op like (mini) crits for your whole team.
GentlemanJonChanges have to stop moving in a defensive direction. Air stickies are worse so demomen are worse going forward. There are more healing and defensive options because we've unbanned the unlocks. These incremental changes all add up, large or bizarre changes aren't needed.
Weapons need to be made better in attacking situations to encourage and reward players for getting into attacking situations.
Maps could do with making entry into points easier so ubers don't get popped so early for the attackers and low risk holds on points could be made riskier.
Methods of disrupting the uber cycle could be made easier as uber asymmetry helps aggression.
Make Kritz viable.
5cp isn't broken, it's like Soccer was 30 years ago before changes were made to encourage more attacking play.
This. Go back to the old ESEA whitelist, and the game will be faster.
[quote=GentlemanJon]Changes have to stop moving in a defensive direction. Air stickies are worse so demomen are worse going forward. There are more healing and defensive options because we've unbanned the unlocks. These incremental changes all add up, large or bizarre changes aren't needed.
Weapons need to be made better in attacking situations to encourage and reward players for getting into attacking situations.
Maps could do with making entry into points easier so ubers don't get popped so early for the attackers and low risk holds on points could be made riskier.
Methods of disrupting the uber cycle could be made easier as uber asymmetry helps aggression.
Make Kritz viable.
5cp isn't broken, it's like Soccer was 30 years ago before changes were made to encourage more attacking play.[/quote]
This. Go back to the old ESEA whitelist, and the game will be faster.
Weapons need to be made better in attacking situations to encourage and reward players for getting into attacking situations.
Maps could do with making entry into points easier so ubers don't get popped so early for the attackers and low risk holds on points could be made riskier.
Methods of disrupting the uber cycle could be made easier as uber asymmetry helps aggression.
Make Kritz viable.
5cp isn't broken, it's like Soccer was 30 years ago before changes were made to encourage more attacking play.[/quote]
This. Go back to the old ESEA whitelist, and the game will be faster.
tsarThis. Go back to the old ESEA whitelist, and the game will be faster.
You can park the bus no matter what whitelist is in use.
[quote=tsar]This. Go back to the old ESEA whitelist, and the game will be faster.[/quote]
You can park the bus no matter what whitelist is in use.
You can park the bus no matter what whitelist is in use.
I hate when I type a million words with no punctuation theres a TLDR at the bottom
https://youtu.be/R8f-lYFMIYM?t=180
even if you have 20 CPs left before you lose the game you still wont push because you are on defense
hopefully im not taking that out of context or anything but thats just insane I feel like the cool part of 5cp is that there isnt a team who is "on defense" or "on offense" thats an argument people use against playing A/D like gpit and that other cringe map
if you have 20 CPs left before you lose the game and you dont do anything and call 5cp/50cp/101cp a broken gamemode you are 1. awful at the game 2. a humongous virgin pussy team 3. I dont even know but jesus christ man 20 cps is a lot of cps
a lot of interesting things happen during stalemates vs 2 good teams the shitty part is that people who are watching and probably the camera guys are not good enough at the game to see it and be interested by it
saccing 1 guy and playing sniper is definitely the least interesting of the choices teams can make during a stalemate unless you are the type of person who luvs snipar playz
look at granary yard stalemate a fuckin classic that everyone hates
holding yard
control of garage:
run up catwalk and hide there to surprise someone entering it peak into middle and maybe get a mondo sac or just sick damage and staying alive
if you did a ton of damage with the peak maybe a scout can run through choke with a buff and if he gets something juicy there either damage exchange/wins a 1v1/runs deep cause nobody saw him
if its a damage exchange then both sides of themap are now hurt and someone can sac with a higher % juicy rate + if it goes wrong you already bought yourself time because the enemies are hurt and you have control of garage still their only option is healing up and rotating choke (pretty easy to predict and pwn)
if its a 1v1 win then you have a number pretty obvious
if its run deep cause nobody saw him then you know have him do some spooky flanky scout stuff easy
thats a lot of the cool stuff that you can do as a defensive team with control of garage but maybe you fuck up or the enemy team makes a nice play with catwalk on you instead maybe gets some dank spams and you have to concede garage
team at middle has control of garage
you have a lot of angles to work with now your pocket/demo can spam at the scout on the shed or the enemy medic to butter him up for a sac from probably choke as long as that shed scout got knocked off
but maybe while spamming you just hit a nice clump and they have to heal up instead of just saccing you can run a scout through garage and into left yard where he will find a 1v1 with a soldier who is probably unbuffed or nobody because its kinda dangerous to hold right yard alone without a buff
now you have a scout behind the enemy team he can pressure the cap then run away if anyone chases him weakening the enemy yard hold and creating holes that the team on mid can penetrate to take over yard either by peaking and spamming choke or just running more people through that same route on the left
the scout behind can maybe just go to lunchbox and wait a bit maybe the enemy will send players back for him and he can try to trade
maybe he just goes straight in for a sac from behind with some spam from the front
and I think EU guys love to do the uber exchanges with scout/solly on even numbers after some gud spam personally I was never on a team that did this often so I cant speak about the thought process but I assume theres a lot that goes into doing that well with spam before and after the exchange/knowing how long you can stay/focus fire during the uber and post exchange positioning
TL:DR 6s on 5cp is awesome if you are good at it and can be shitty if you suck at it but I think most games are like that its extremely hard to fix without ruining the game for people who are good
the great part about tf2 is there are tons of ways to be bad at it and not all of them are boring
the main time that being bad is boring is when you hit that unlucky timing where you are bad but you think you are good at that point you are just fucked
I hate when I type a million words with no punctuation theres a TLDR at the bottom
https://youtu.be/R8f-lYFMIYM?t=180
even if you have 20 CPs left before you lose the game you still wont push because you are on defense
hopefully im not taking that out of context or anything but thats just insane I feel like the cool part of 5cp is that there isnt a team who is "on defense" or "on offense" thats an argument people use against playing A/D like gpit and that other cringe map
if you have 20 CPs left before you lose the game and you dont do anything and call 5cp/50cp/101cp a broken gamemode you are 1. awful at the game 2. a humongous virgin pussy team 3. I dont even know but jesus christ man 20 cps is a lot of cps
a lot of interesting things happen during stalemates vs 2 good teams the shitty part is that people who are watching and probably the camera guys are not good enough at the game to see it and be interested by it
saccing 1 guy and playing sniper is definitely the least interesting of the choices teams can make during a stalemate unless you are the type of person who luvs snipar playz
look at granary yard stalemate a fuckin classic that everyone hates
holding yard
control of garage:
run up catwalk and hide there to surprise someone entering it peak into middle and maybe get a mondo sac or just sick damage and staying alive
if you did a ton of damage with the peak maybe a scout can run through choke with a buff and if he gets something juicy there either damage exchange/wins a 1v1/runs deep cause nobody saw him
if its a damage exchange then both sides of themap are now hurt and someone can sac with a higher % juicy rate + if it goes wrong you already bought yourself time because the enemies are hurt and you have control of garage still their only option is healing up and rotating choke (pretty easy to predict and pwn)
if its a 1v1 win then you have a number pretty obvious
if its run deep cause nobody saw him then you know have him do some spooky flanky scout stuff easy
thats a lot of the cool stuff that you can do as a defensive team with control of garage but maybe you fuck up or the enemy team makes a nice play with catwalk on you instead maybe gets some dank spams and you have to concede garage
team at middle has control of garage
you have a lot of angles to work with now your pocket/demo can spam at the scout on the shed or the enemy medic to butter him up for a sac from probably choke as long as that shed scout got knocked off
but maybe while spamming you just hit a nice clump and they have to heal up instead of just saccing you can run a scout through garage and into left yard where he will find a 1v1 with a soldier who is probably unbuffed or nobody because its kinda dangerous to hold right yard alone without a buff
now you have a scout behind the enemy team he can pressure the cap then run away if anyone chases him weakening the enemy yard hold and creating holes that the team on mid can penetrate to take over yard either by peaking and spamming choke or just running more people through that same route on the left
the scout behind can maybe just go to lunchbox and wait a bit maybe the enemy will send players back for him and he can try to trade
maybe he just goes straight in for a sac from behind with some spam from the front
and I think EU guys love to do the uber exchanges with scout/solly on even numbers after some gud spam personally I was never on a team that did this often so I cant speak about the thought process but I assume theres a lot that goes into doing that well with spam before and after the exchange/knowing how long you can stay/focus fire during the uber and post exchange positioning
TL:DR 6s on 5cp is awesome if you are good at it and can be shitty if you suck at it but I think most games are like that its extremely hard to fix without ruining the game for people who are good
the great part about tf2 is there are tons of ways to be bad at it and not all of them are boring
the main time that being bad is boring is when you hit that unlucky timing where you are bad but you think you are good at that point you are just fucked
https://youtu.be/R8f-lYFMIYM?t=180
even if you have 20 CPs left before you lose the game you still wont push because you are on defense
hopefully im not taking that out of context or anything but thats just insane I feel like the cool part of 5cp is that there isnt a team who is "on defense" or "on offense" thats an argument people use against playing A/D like gpit and that other cringe map
if you have 20 CPs left before you lose the game and you dont do anything and call 5cp/50cp/101cp a broken gamemode you are 1. awful at the game 2. a humongous virgin pussy team 3. I dont even know but jesus christ man 20 cps is a lot of cps
a lot of interesting things happen during stalemates vs 2 good teams the shitty part is that people who are watching and probably the camera guys are not good enough at the game to see it and be interested by it
saccing 1 guy and playing sniper is definitely the least interesting of the choices teams can make during a stalemate unless you are the type of person who luvs snipar playz
look at granary yard stalemate a fuckin classic that everyone hates
holding yard
control of garage:
run up catwalk and hide there to surprise someone entering it peak into middle and maybe get a mondo sac or just sick damage and staying alive
if you did a ton of damage with the peak maybe a scout can run through choke with a buff and if he gets something juicy there either damage exchange/wins a 1v1/runs deep cause nobody saw him
if its a damage exchange then both sides of themap are now hurt and someone can sac with a higher % juicy rate + if it goes wrong you already bought yourself time because the enemies are hurt and you have control of garage still their only option is healing up and rotating choke (pretty easy to predict and pwn)
if its a 1v1 win then you have a number pretty obvious
if its run deep cause nobody saw him then you know have him do some spooky flanky scout stuff easy
thats a lot of the cool stuff that you can do as a defensive team with control of garage but maybe you fuck up or the enemy team makes a nice play with catwalk on you instead maybe gets some dank spams and you have to concede garage
team at middle has control of garage
you have a lot of angles to work with now your pocket/demo can spam at the scout on the shed or the enemy medic to butter him up for a sac from probably choke as long as that shed scout got knocked off
but maybe while spamming you just hit a nice clump and they have to heal up instead of just saccing you can run a scout through garage and into left yard where he will find a 1v1 with a soldier who is probably unbuffed or nobody because its kinda dangerous to hold right yard alone without a buff
now you have a scout behind the enemy team he can pressure the cap then run away if anyone chases him weakening the enemy yard hold and creating holes that the team on mid can penetrate to take over yard either by peaking and spamming choke or just running more people through that same route on the left
the scout behind can maybe just go to lunchbox and wait a bit maybe the enemy will send players back for him and he can try to trade
maybe he just goes straight in for a sac from behind with some spam from the front
and I think EU guys love to do the uber exchanges with scout/solly on even numbers after some gud spam personally I was never on a team that did this often so I cant speak about the thought process but I assume theres a lot that goes into doing that well with spam before and after the exchange/knowing how long you can stay/focus fire during the uber and post exchange positioning
TL:DR 6s on 5cp is awesome if you are good at it and can be shitty if you suck at it but I think most games are like that its extremely hard to fix without ruining the game for people who are good
the great part about tf2 is there are tons of ways to be bad at it and not all of them are boring
the main time that being bad is boring is when you hit that unlucky timing where you are bad but you think you are good at that point you are just fucked
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