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Koth Product (former pro viaduct)
31
#31
5 Frags +

this is not good stuff

this is not good stuff
32
#32
19 Frags +

no matter how hard u push this name down my throat im gonna call it viaduct

no matter how hard u push this name down my throat im gonna call it viaduct
33
#33
16 Frags +

i guess we have to put up with cp_pronary as well

i guess we have to put up with cp_pronary as well
34
#34
-15 Frags +

Pro * Viaduct = Product

Pro * Viaduct = Product
35
#35
11 Frags +

I don't ship it

I don't ship it
36
#36
12 Frags +

can you please fix the map so i can have at least 1/5 of the fps i get on badlands? thanks :)

can you please fix the map so i can have at least 1/5 of the fps i get on badlands? thanks :)
37
#37
5 Frags +

The other download link dont work :/

The other download link dont work :/
38
#38
koth_product
3 Frags +
quequenThe other download link dont work :/

thanks for pointing that out. tf2maps.net recently lost a large chunk of their downloads by accident. will be updating that

[quote=quequen]The other download link dont work :/[/quote]
thanks for pointing that out. tf2maps.net recently lost a large chunk of their downloads by accident. will be updating that
39
#39
10 Frags +

Just two minor things that bugged me

Why can you stand both on top of these windows (Prop is solid) as well as on the little ledge?:
(There are also several other windows on the map. How should we know which ones we can stand on and which ones we can't?)

http://i.imgur.com/g93zW37.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/b0YfeYb.jpg

This feels incredibly unsmooth to walk into:

http://i.imgur.com/NiQcSLO.jpg

Just two minor things that bugged me

Why can you stand both on top of these windows (Prop is solid) as well as on the little ledge?:
(There are also several other windows on the map. How should we know which ones we can stand on and which ones we can't?)
[img]http://i.imgur.com/g93zW37.jpg[/img]
[img]http://i.imgur.com/b0YfeYb.jpg[/img]

This feels incredibly unsmooth to walk into:
[img]http://i.imgur.com/NiQcSLO.jpg[/img]
40
#40
31 Frags +

Hey Fubar, I don't know if you still visit here (and if he doesn't, anyone on his friends list who sees this and wants to let him know this would be appreciated greatly), but I'd like to very politely request a small (but important unless Valve fixes it themselves) change made to Product whenever you can.

Basically, Valve coded how the Pomson & Wrap Assassin projectiles work differently than every other projectile in the game. Other projectiles check collision by checking individual brushes, however these 2 weapons check collision by seeing if they intersect with a bounding box.

The problem here is that the connector on Product uses func_lod in such a way where these 2 weapon's projectiles always intersect the bounding box of the func_lod when you shoot towards the connector. If you try to shoot either weapon into/out of connector (or a small area around the entrances to connector) the projectiles disappear (in the case of the Wrap bauble it explodes).

This isn't a terribly important issue to fix right away (e: altho having an rc9 before product is played in UGC in 2 weeks would be lit), however it limits the viability of these 2 weapons in these specific areas (mainly in Highlander/pubs), and should Valve add more projectiles like this in the future would affect them too.

Thanks.

Hey Fubar, I don't know if you still visit here (and if he doesn't, anyone on his friends list who sees this and wants to let him know this would be appreciated greatly), but I'd like to very politely request a small (but important unless Valve fixes it themselves) change made to Product whenever you can.

Basically, Valve coded how the Pomson & Wrap Assassin projectiles work differently than every other projectile in the game. Other projectiles check collision by checking individual brushes, however these 2 weapons check collision by seeing if they intersect with a bounding box.

The problem here is that the connector on Product uses func_lod in such a way where these 2 weapon's projectiles always intersect the bounding box of the func_lod when you shoot towards the connector. If you try to shoot either weapon into/out of connector (or a small area around the entrances to connector) the projectiles disappear (in the case of the Wrap bauble it explodes).

This isn't a terribly important issue to fix right away (e: altho having an rc9 before product is played in UGC in 2 weeks would be lit), however it limits the viability of these 2 weapons in these specific areas (mainly in Highlander/pubs), and should Valve add more projectiles like this in the future would affect them too.

Thanks.
41
#41
koth_product
23 Frags +
DarkNecridHey Fubar, I don't know if you still visit here (and if he doesn't, anyone on his friends list who sees this and wants to let him know this would be appreciated greatly), but I'd like to very politely request a small (but important unless Valve fixes it themselves) change made to Product whenever you can.

Basically, Valve coded how the Pomson & Wrap Assassin projectiles work differently than every other projectile in the game. Other projectiles check collision by checking individual brushes, however these 2 weapons check collision by seeing if they intersect with a bounding box.

The problem here is that the connector on Product uses func_lod in such a way where these 2 weapon's projectiles always intersect the bounding box of the func_lod when you shoot towards the connector. If you try to shoot either weapon into/out of connector (or a small area around the entrances to connector) the projectiles disappear (in the case of the Wrap bauble it explodes).

This isn't a terribly important issue to fix right away (e: altho having an rc9 before product is played in UGC in 2 weeks would be lit), however it limits the viability of these 2 weapons in these specific areas (mainly in Highlander/pubs), and should Valve add more projectiles like this in the future would affect them too.

Thanks.

Thanks for bringing that to my attention. If other people have requests/suggestions for rc9, now is a good time.
Make it count, next version could be the definitive one.

[quote=DarkNecrid]Hey Fubar, I don't know if you still visit here (and if he doesn't, anyone on his friends list who sees this and wants to let him know this would be appreciated greatly), but I'd like to very politely request a small (but important unless Valve fixes it themselves) change made to Product whenever you can.

Basically, Valve coded how the Pomson & Wrap Assassin projectiles work differently than every other projectile in the game. Other projectiles check collision by checking individual brushes, however these 2 weapons check collision by seeing if they intersect with a bounding box.

The problem here is that the connector on Product uses func_lod in such a way where these 2 weapon's projectiles always intersect the bounding box of the func_lod when you shoot towards the connector. If you try to shoot either weapon into/out of connector (or a small area around the entrances to connector) the projectiles disappear (in the case of the Wrap bauble it explodes).

This isn't a terribly important issue to fix right away (e: altho having an rc9 before product is played in UGC in 2 weeks would be lit), however it limits the viability of these 2 weapons in these specific areas (mainly in Highlander/pubs), and should Valve add more projectiles like this in the future would affect them too.

Thanks.[/quote]
Thanks for bringing that to my attention. If other people have requests/suggestions for rc9, now is a good time.
Make it count, next version could be the definitive one.
42
#42
25 Frags +

I am not sure what the consensus is, but I wanted to make a suggestion to remove the fence behind the rock.

For highlander and 6s - it essentially allows the sniper to have a sightline through main, pocket, japan, china, and connector while being easily protected and exposing very little of himself to the enemy sniper, which makes sniper v. sniper really difficult. This is due to the geometry of the rock and how 70% of the sniper's body is covered and how the sniper can easily rotate to watch any sightline based off comms. During sac waves, it is difficult to kill the sniper as you are betting on hitting a perfect splash on around the geometry of the rock, while also dealing with pyros, scouts, heavies, etc denying you while you are in the air. Thus, your only viable option is to win the sniper v. sniper fight, which already is a disavantage for the sniper that is not playing on rock as his body is fully exposed and has to deal with flankers/bombers, while the sniper on the rock can be protected by his team and his body is not fully exposed.

For 6's in particular - the biggest argument for keeping the fence behind rock is that it allows the scout to climb up the rock and have the movement to jump back between china, cliff, and rock to deny the soldier and demoman during the sac waves - an important aspect of the metagame in the gamemode. If the fence were to be removed, it would impact scouts as they cannot jump on the rock as freely as they can to deny the bombs, which would potientally make scouts weaker on the map (?). The sniper argument also can apply here in 6's as it would make sniper a bit worse, which is always good.

These are just my thoughts though. I would like to hear other people's opinions regarding this topic.

I am not sure what the consensus is, but I wanted to make a suggestion to remove the fence behind the rock.

For highlander and 6s - it essentially allows the sniper to have a sightline through main, pocket, japan, china, and connector while being easily protected and exposing very little of himself to the enemy sniper, which makes sniper v. sniper really difficult. This is due to the geometry of the rock and how 70% of the sniper's body is covered and how the sniper can easily rotate to watch any sightline based off comms. During sac waves, it is difficult to kill the sniper as you are betting on hitting a perfect splash on around the geometry of the rock, while also dealing with pyros, scouts, heavies, etc denying you while you are in the air. Thus, your only viable option is to win the sniper v. sniper fight, which already is a disavantage for the sniper that is not playing on rock as his body is fully exposed and has to deal with flankers/bombers, while the sniper on the rock can be protected by his team and his body is not fully exposed.

For 6's in particular - the biggest argument for keeping the fence behind rock is that it allows the scout to climb up the rock and have the movement to jump back between china, cliff, and rock to deny the soldier and demoman during the sac waves - an important aspect of the metagame in the gamemode. If the fence were to be removed, it would impact scouts as they cannot jump on the rock as freely as they can to deny the bombs, which would potientally make scouts weaker on the map (?). The sniper argument also can apply here in 6's as it would make sniper a bit worse, which is always good.

These are just my thoughts though. I would like to hear other people's opinions regarding this topic.
43
#43
-1 Frags +
ExaflamerI am not sure what the consensus is, but I wanted to make a suggestion to remove the fence behind the rock.

For highlander and 6s - it essentially allows the sniper to have a sightline through main, pocket, japan, china, and connector while being easily protected and exposing very little of himself to the enemy sniper, which makes sniper v. sniper really difficult. This is due to the geometry of the rock and how 70% of the sniper's body is covered and how the sniper can easily rotate to watch any sightline based off comms. During sac waves, it is difficult to kill the sniper as you are betting on hitting a perfect splash on around the geometry of the rock, while also dealing with pyros, scouts, heavies, etc denying you while you are in the air. Thus, your only viable option is to win the sniper v. sniper fight, which already is a disavantage for the sniper that is not playing on rock as his body is fully exposed and has to deal with flankers/bombers, while the sniper on the rocket can be protected by his team and his body is not fully exposed.

For 6's in particular - the biggest argument for keeping the fence behind rock is that it allows the scout to climb up the rock and have the movement to jump back between china, cliff, and rock to deny the soldier and demoman during the sac waves - an important aspect of the metagame in the gamemode. If the fence were to be removed, it would impact scouts as they cannot jump on the rock as freely as they can to deny the bombs, which would potientally make scouts weaker on the map (?). The sniper argument also can apply here in 6's as it would make sniper a bit worse, which is always good.

These are just my thoughts though. I would like to hear other people's opinions regarding this topic.

iirc scouts can use winger to get on the rock anyway. the fence is enough of a problem in hl to be removed imo

[quote=Exaflamer]I am not sure what the consensus is, but I wanted to make a suggestion to remove the fence behind the rock.

For highlander and 6s - it essentially allows the sniper to have a sightline through main, pocket, japan, china, and connector while being easily protected and exposing very little of himself to the enemy sniper, which makes sniper v. sniper really difficult. This is due to the geometry of the rock and how 70% of the sniper's body is covered and how the sniper can easily rotate to watch any sightline based off comms. During sac waves, it is difficult to kill the sniper as you are betting on hitting a perfect splash on around the geometry of the rock, while also dealing with pyros, scouts, heavies, etc denying you while you are in the air. Thus, your only viable option is to win the sniper v. sniper fight, which already is a disavantage for the sniper that is not playing on rock as his body is fully exposed and has to deal with flankers/bombers, while the sniper on the rocket can be protected by his team and his body is not fully exposed.

For 6's in particular - the biggest argument for keeping the fence behind rock is that it allows the scout to climb up the rock and have the movement to jump back between china, cliff, and rock to deny the soldier and demoman during the sac waves - an important aspect of the metagame in the gamemode. If the fence were to be removed, it would impact scouts as they cannot jump on the rock as freely as they can to deny the bombs, which would potientally make scouts weaker on the map (?). The sniper argument also can apply here in 6's as it would make sniper a bit worse, which is always good.

These are just my thoughts though. I would like to hear other people's opinions regarding this topic.[/quote]

iirc scouts can use winger to get on the rock anyway. the fence is enough of a problem in hl to be removed imo
44
#44
2 Frags +

Off the top of my head, If the enemy sniper is on the fence, you can peek your head from behind the stairs by concrete and see the sniper's head and most of his body, and it's the fastest way to svs him without waiting for him to peek any other angles. There's plenty of other dumb angles where you can see practically everything, but the fence is definitely pretty powerful since you can see everything and play directly around your team.

That being said, I wouldn't be too sad if the fence got nerfed/removed. I've heard the proposal before, and product has had similar changes before (iirc china was shortened at some point due to similar complaints). Considering that HL is nowhere near where it used to be in term of popularity and high-level players (at least in NA idk about EU). I wouldn't change it just for HL but if people think it's broken enough for scout in 6's then go for it I guess. The map has been around for as long as I've been playing so it does seem a little silly to change such a iconic feature of the map this late, but i'm a dumb sniper main so I'm probably rather biased.

Off the top of my head, If the enemy sniper is on the fence, you can peek your head from behind the stairs by concrete and see the sniper's head and most of his body, and it's the fastest way to svs him without waiting for him to peek any other angles. There's plenty of other dumb angles where you can see practically everything, but the fence is definitely pretty powerful since you can see everything and play directly around your team.

That being said, I wouldn't be too sad if the fence got nerfed/removed. I've heard the proposal before, and product has had similar changes before (iirc china was shortened at some point due to similar complaints). Considering that HL is nowhere near where it used to be in term of popularity and high-level players (at least in NA idk about EU). I wouldn't change it just for HL but if people think it's broken enough for scout in 6's then go for it I guess. The map has been around for as long as I've been playing so it does seem a little silly to change such a iconic feature of the map this late, but i'm a dumb sniper main so I'm probably rather biased.
45
#45
4 Frags +

scouts can get on the rock without the winger, and can also get onto china via the windowsill below china facing the point. Also if removing the fence is too big of a problem for 6s, another solution may be to raise it, or grade the ground arround the rock so that the fence is only accessible via double jump.

Also, the only scout jump that can not be done with the wood is the jump from bridge/japan onto the rock. All other jumps and ways to get onto the rock are still accessible without the wood.

I agree, this change is a good one with few reprocussions that will make sniper weaker on the point.

Thinking about other classes, specifically highlander, I think the removal would make playing in the pocket more appealing compared to behind rock, as a team can not plant their heavy/sniper on the rock anymore.

scouts can get on the rock without the winger, and can also get onto china via the windowsill below china facing the point. Also if removing the fence is too big of a problem for 6s, another solution may be to raise it, or grade the ground arround the rock so that the fence is only accessible via double jump.

Also, the only scout jump that can not be done with the wood is the jump from bridge/japan onto the rock. All other jumps and ways to get onto the rock are still accessible without the wood.

I agree, this change is a good one with few reprocussions that will make sniper weaker on the point.

Thinking about other classes, specifically highlander, I think the removal would make playing in the pocket more appealing compared to behind rock, as a team can not plant their heavy/sniper on the rock anymore.
46
#46
4 Frags +

I personally agree with the intent behind #42's suggestion but disagree with the way to get there.

Sniper on rock is pretty damn powerful, but I would much rather prefer just adjusting the rock's geometry / size so that the spot isn't as powerful (but still an option) and so that projectiles/hitscan are easier to land there. Basically, expose the Sniper significantly more so that it's infinitely easier for the other Sniper to contest from multiple points (but still gives the defending Sniper a tiny advantage) and easier for him to get pressured/bombed.

...this is also admittedly likely more work than just removing the fence, but I think it'd be much better for gameplay overall than just removing options entirely. If the fence is empty it can also be pretty nice to escape on with cloak as a Spy since people don't usually expect you to jump on it and expect you to just stay on the ground.

e:

Shrinking the rock also shouldn't majorly affect any sightlines for defending Snipers since you can stand on boxes and see over the enemy's rock regardless.

e2:

Something like this for more visual oriented people: http://i.imgur.com/y4Nm4eI.png

Note: Nowhere near exactly spaced, it'd have to be spaced correctly to prevent crouched Sniper being dumb.

The main purpose would be so that if you're standing you'd have a significantly larger section of your body (and more importantly head) exposed at all angles, if you're in the middle of behind the rock you'd still have almost your entire upper body exposed, while on the sides you'd have part of your side and most of your chest and entire head exposed. If you're crouched you'd still be more exposed than currently at all angles (with the added downside of you're crouched so you can't move around quickly without standing which now exposes yourself).

Ideally if done properly this would still be a solid rotation spot for Snipers still but wouldn't be a consistent spot to just stand at for most of the game on defense anymore, while still having enough height that denying jumpers shouldn't be impacted significantly in 6s.

I personally agree with the intent behind #42's suggestion but disagree with the way to get there.

Sniper on rock is pretty damn powerful, but I would much rather prefer just adjusting the rock's geometry / size so that the spot isn't as powerful (but still an option) and so that projectiles/hitscan are easier to land there. Basically, expose the Sniper significantly more so that it's infinitely easier for the other Sniper to contest from multiple points (but still gives the defending Sniper a tiny advantage) and easier for him to get pressured/bombed.

...this is also admittedly likely more work than just removing the fence, but I think it'd be much better for gameplay overall than just removing options entirely. If the fence is empty it can also be pretty nice to escape on with cloak as a Spy since people don't usually expect you to jump on it and expect you to just stay on the ground.

e:

Shrinking the rock also shouldn't majorly affect any sightlines for defending Snipers since you can stand on boxes and see over the enemy's rock regardless.

e2:

Something like this for more visual oriented people: http://i.imgur.com/y4Nm4eI.png

Note: Nowhere near exactly spaced, it'd have to be spaced correctly to prevent crouched Sniper being dumb.

The main purpose would be so that if you're standing you'd have a significantly larger section of your body (and more importantly head) exposed at all angles, if you're in the middle of behind the rock you'd still have almost your entire upper body exposed, while on the sides you'd have part of your side and most of your chest and entire head exposed. If you're crouched you'd still be more exposed than currently at all angles (with the added downside of you're crouched so you can't move around quickly without standing which now exposes yourself).

Ideally if done properly this would still be a solid rotation spot for Snipers still but wouldn't be a consistent spot to just stand at for most of the game on defense anymore, while still having enough height that denying jumpers shouldn't be impacted significantly in 6s.
47
#47
7 Frags +

Hey Fubar, just wanted to make sure you're aware of this since it's in another thread, but the spawn zones on both spawns seem like they are set to both teams + extend outside the spawn partially, so if you run into the enemy's spawn door and change classes you will teleport back to your own team's spawn across the entire map.

Hey Fubar, just wanted to make sure you're aware of this since it's in another thread, but the spawn zones on both spawns seem like they are set to both teams + extend outside the spawn partially, so if you run into the enemy's spawn door and change classes you will teleport back to your own team's spawn across the entire map.
48
#48
2 Frags +

#46 I don't think shrinking the rock is good solution. The rock isn't used only by Snipers. Medics also like to use it as cover from enemy Snipers. I'd have to check, but I believe it can be used to hide from Cliff, House, China, Rock, Main, or Concrete, depending on where the Medic is standing. In your own screenshot, the rock is keeping you safe from a Sniper in House (I think), on China, on Rock, or in Main. If you shrink the rock to your blue outline, you would be exposed to all of those sightlines.

#46 I don't think shrinking the rock is good solution. The rock isn't used only by Snipers. Medics also like to use it as cover from enemy Snipers. I'd have to check, but I believe it can be used to hide from Cliff, House, China, Rock, Main, or Concrete, depending on where the Medic is standing. In your own screenshot, the rock is keeping you safe from a Sniper in House (I think), on China, on Rock, or in Main. If you shrink the rock to your blue outline, you would be exposed to all of those sightlines.
49
#49
1 Frags +

#48 Nope, in my screenshot I am noclipped floating above the ground by quite a bit to get the best picture of rock from the perspective of an offensive Sniper, a Medic would still be protected by all those things because in reality there is a substantial slope into the ground there, you can't actually stand at that height at that spot in my original picture without noclipping. (and I've never seen a Medic actually stand on fence itself? Medic is only 1 inch shorter than Sniper so that wouldn't work out too well for you unless you were crouched on fence 24/7 which shouldn't be a very good idea for a class that needs to surf rockets/escape on a moments notice)

This is the almost the exact same spot (just moved forward against the fence since that helps with clipping rockets from bombers so it's a more realistic position) without the noclipping (as a Medic even to alleviate any worry): http://i.imgur.com/H6JzDaV.jpg

Even with my clipping you'd be super well protected from enemy Snipers. You'd have to move off the slope to flat ground on the left (basically the very very far left of the fence) or past the fence on the right out into the open to lose the Sniper protection due to the slope existing.

#48 Nope, in my screenshot I am noclipped floating above the ground by quite a bit to get the best picture of rock from the perspective of an offensive Sniper, a Medic would still be protected by all those things because in reality there is a substantial slope into the ground there, you can't actually stand at that height at that spot in my original picture without noclipping. (and I've never seen a Medic actually stand on fence itself? Medic is only 1 inch shorter than Sniper so that wouldn't work out too well for you unless you were crouched on fence 24/7 which shouldn't be a very good idea for a class that needs to surf rockets/escape on a moments notice)

This is the almost the exact same spot (just moved forward against the fence since that helps with clipping rockets from bombers so it's a more realistic position) without the noclipping (as a Medic even to alleviate any worry): http://i.imgur.com/H6JzDaV.jpg

Even with my clipping you'd be super well protected from enemy Snipers. You'd have to move off the slope to flat ground on the left (basically the very very far left of the fence) or past the fence on the right out into the open to lose the Sniper protection due to the slope existing.
50
#50
koth_product
51 Frags +

Hey there, small update for fairly large issues. Here's rc9

https://tf2maps.net/downloads/product.1063/download?version=12842

changelog:
-fixed pomson, bison and wrap assassin projectiles being blocked by the middle connector.
-prevents wallbugging above "concrete" houses for information
-other minor adjustments

Hey there, small update for fairly large issues. Here's rc9

https://tf2maps.net/downloads/product.1063/download?version=12842

changelog:
-fixed pomson, bison and wrap assassin projectiles being blocked by the middle connector.
-prevents wallbugging above "concrete" houses for information
-other minor adjustments
51
#51
15 Frags +

rc9 outta nowhere!!!

rc9 outta nowhere!!!
52
#52
4 Frags +

PogChamp

PogChamp
53
#53
4 Frags +

b i g

b i g
54
#54
4 Frags +

larg

larg
55
#55
5 Frags +
Fubar-fixed pomson, bison and wrap assassin projectiles being blocked by the middle connector.

Thank you so much for this!

[quote=Fubar]-fixed pomson, bison and [b]wrap assassin projectiles[/b] being blocked by the middle connector.[/quote]

Thank you so much for this!
56
#56
-2 Frags +

so hey when is rc9 gonna start getting used in leagues and pugs and stuff

so hey when is rc9 gonna start getting used in leagues and pugs and stuff
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